Passing Through Life
Passing Through Life
12--The Reluctant Entrepreneur
Most of us experience a variety of job changes in our lives. But what happens when those jobs no longer satisfy?
If you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to create your own business, what might that look like? How do you know it's the right time? What are some of the typical pitfalls? And are there tips for success that others can learn from?
Lorraine Schuchart had a dream job early on as the director of communications of a growing social ministry organization. But when her mentor--and the founder of that organization--passed away, things changed and she knew it was time to move on.
Listen as Lorraine charts a course from the non-profit world into the for-profit world, and eventually charts her own course into building an agency that serves them both--Prosper for Purpose.
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NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 9.19.18. All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.
This is passing through life, a show that explores how people navigate major life changes. Just how do we make it through what life throws at us. I'm your host. Luanne Bole-Becker. The title for today's episode is"The Reluctant Entrepreneur." It's episode number 12, an interview with Lorraine Schuchart, CEO and founder of Prosper for Purpose, a full service communications agency. She and the company she founded focus on helping organizations that are purpose driven
Speaker 2:with branding, public relations and development work. So welcome Lorraine. I'm happy you could join us today to be here, Louis. Thanks for inviting me. Cool. Lorraine and I first met at a pretty special organization, Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry or Lmm as it's more frequently called Lmm, was the direct result of the passion and dedication of a visionary named Dick Searing, who believed in walking alongside and empowering people who are oppressed and hurting, and he did it as a true servant leader. Lorraine had the privilege of knowing Dick and helping to shape that young LMM organization. I came on board many years later, literally being on the board there and I think Lorraine and I saw a lot of similarities in each other. And so our working together also has become a friendship. A month or so ago we sat down and talk about how Lorraine got to where she is right now in life, especially, um, as a creator of a unique type of company. And it seemed that a lot of her transitions, um, could be common to a lot of people. So I'd like to help trace your career journey and how it's so intertwined with your personal life, um, and goals. Okay, great. You're going to follow me?
Speaker 3:Yeah. All right, cool. So let's start chronologically, even if we change our minds and wander off of it and that's okay. Um, where did you want to be when you grew up? Well, when I was a little girl different, as soon as I realized I couldn't get paid to read books, which was my true passion. Um, although I guess some people do make a career, I guess you could. Yeah. Um, I decided I wanted to be a school teacher. I had a couple of great school teachers when I was in elementary school and I couldn't think of a better way to spend my life than being in a classroom. Okay. So is that what you went to school for? It is. So I chose Bowling Green State University, which had a great, um, k to 12 educational program. That's what I declared as my major. Um, and then reality struck and there was, I guess what you could call divine intervention. We were on quarters at that time and within one quarter I had of my professors and my guidance counselor say, Hey, you know that there is no job market.
Speaker 4:Okay, the 12[inaudible] we noticed that you're taking all these writing classes, creative writing and journalism and, um, you might want to consider a career there.
Speaker 3:And I was just kind of dumbfounded and lost and thought, well, you know, that, that sounds interesting, but what could I actually do? And, and this was pre internet. So it sounds bizarre to say, but I didn't really know what careers in marketing or advertising or PR, which I have ended eventually ended up in, um, even looked like I, if someone had said, what about public relations, I would have said, what is that? Um, so I continued the education course, but I also took more classes and started exploring some of the other tracks and really decided that public relations was kind of a, a marriage of all the things that I loved. So I could work within a business or for business and educate them on how to present themselves. But really, I've always considered myself a strategist and a storyteller in public relations is at its essence, storytelling for other organizations. So bringing their stories to life in a way that resonates with the people that they want to build relationships with. And so I fell in love with that, ended up getting my degree in PR and I was oft and running.
Speaker 4:Is that how most people would define public relations or have you given it a different spin there?[inaudible] I didn't mean in the negative connotation. It's just like the curse word PR practitioners. But that's okay. Um, you know, it's interesting
Speaker 3:because PR for me was always that and it wasn't until I'd been out in the world working in public relations for quite a while that I understood that to most people. Public Relations is publicity period. It's what can you get me in news coverage? Of course, again, we're talking pre internet and pre social media and um, so even now I find myself, um, you know, talking to people, when I say we're primarily a PR firm, I usually say, and we define that as helping organizations build relationships with all of their stakeholders from the inside out. So again, trying to kind of push away the jargon. That means having good relationships with your employees, your communications with your employees really matters. I, I've counseled organizations and said, don't spend advertising dollars if you have a dysfunctional culture because you're not focusing in the right place. You know, your, your best brand ambassadors or company ambassadors are the people that work for you and with you. And if they're going to be out in the world talking about you, that's what you should be paying attention to first. And then from there, it's relationships with your vendors, your customers, and your potential customers and looking at that. Um, so yeah, sure. We are publicists, we try to get press coverage, but it's so much larger than that. That's just really helpful because I've been in the marketing communications side and I'm not sure that I could define the difference between PR and publicity. So now I'll ponder that. That's cool. Okay, so you change majors so you could get a job. Did you? I did get a job, so I had a few jobs, so I was always juggling a lot of jobs. Um, even before I graduated from college, I would have two or three jobs at a time. My first job was a playground supervisor when I thought it was going to be a school teacher. I ran a playground from nine to, I think it was five o'clock every day. And I did that for, I believe, four summers. And then I survived that. I loved it. I thrived there. The worst thing that ever happened was a mom dropped off her child who was still in diapers and we were not a babysitting service. And it freaked me out. And I called, you know, the recreation department and said, um, I have a toddler here in diapers. I'm not sure who he belongs to. And um, but that only happened once. Um, but we were averaging 60, sometimes 80 kids in a day. And it was me and one other person and I look back now and if you told me I had to do that again, I would probably hide. But at the time I loved it. And so we organize dodge ball games, which was not my favorite, but kickball games and arts and crafts and field trips and things like that. And what I realized is that, um, those playgrounds were really a hub for kids in the summertime that didn't have other things to do. And it gave them constructive ways to spend their time. And I got to be friends with a lot of the kids that came to the playground and they would write to me when I was at college and we would keep in touch and, and it was a great experience. Okay. All right. Okay. Let's move your past playground stuff. What else? So, um, yeah, so I worked at the May company in sales. I worked for the regional income tax agency at one time entering people's taxes. That was not fun, but it paid really well and it was another supplemental job. So when I graduated, um, I started doing marketing for minutemen press, um, which is a franchise and I was in Toledo because upon graduating I also got engaged. So I moved to Toledo. I was doing that. I was, um, doing some other freelance work and I was working at a retail chain called Paul Harris, which no longer exists. I remember Paul here as well. And then about eight months later, um, after interviewing at a variety of places where I either didn't want the job or didn't get offered the job, I started working for the American Cancer Society and I was director of public information and special events and that kind of launched my career into the nonprofit, um, kind of dynamic duo of communications and fundraising. How did that feel? I loved it. Um, my grandmother had passed away of cancer and I felt like it was a really good way for me to help educate other people as to the warning signs of cancer and to raise money for cancer research. Um, I worked with a great team there. Um, but I was making zero money. It was, and they had, I think at that time, like the turnover was 33%. So literally every year about a third of the team in Ohio at least was leaving. Um, and so I stayed there for about three years and then I got offered a job at the Toledo blade in there, copywriting department and I went into advertising, copywriting. And from there I got to counsel clients on their ads. And I would then was also put in charge of advertising the papers. So when they went to pay by mail, which I'm really dating myself, but um, it used to be that your paper carrier, whether it was a young man or young woman, showed up on your doorstep every month to get payment and pay by him nail was this radical idea that you didn't have to be interrupted. And we did a TV campaign around that showing like a woman in the bathtub and the doorbell
Speaker 4:grains, then[inaudible]. And um, so I got to do a lot of of work for them in that. And um, I collected
Speaker 3:nine addy awards along the way and it was great! And I had a baby during that time. And, um, for me it was a real struggle between I wanted to work, but I also wanted to be really present to my children. And um, and my husband and I were talking about having a second. I just said, I can't do it and be committed to a job that, you know, takes me away from my kid 10 to 12 hours a day. It was just not for me. You know, I felt like we barely made it work with one child and I didn't want to do it with two. Um, so from there we moved to Cincinnati and I did freelance work, had a second child and that went on for another three years. I think my, my life seems to go in three years cycles or two or five years or the typical time periods. So, okay. So, um, when I was in Cincinnati, um, I decided to take kind of a separation from my husband and um, I brought my girls who were two and five at the time back to Cleveland. I moved in with my parents and after about three months, decided to file for divorce. So, um, so that was the next phase of my life. So my divorce also took two and a half years, three and it was a very long drawn out process for reasons we don't need to visit today. But, um, during that time I did a lot of soul searching about what I wanted to do. I did a lot of freelance work. Um, and then one day in the plain dealer, I saw an ad that said, are you looking to make a difference? Do you want to find a job that enables you to do well and do good? And I was intrigued and I applied and it was Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry. And, um, I went in and interviewed with two people who are still very close friends of mine. And, um, after that interview, they had the executive director meet with me and it was, I'll never forget, he walked in, crossed his legs, kind of shook his head at me and said,
Speaker 1:so you want to work here? Huh? So let's see how that works. Let's make kind of make this happen. And it was just, the interview was essentially over and I wasn't really sure what happened, but, um, that was, um,
Speaker 3:Reverend Richard searing, who was the founder of Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries. So he was there from 1969 and until he passed away, which it's been 15 years now, 10 years. So, um, 2003 I guess that would make it and um, began a journey of finding a place that I didn't know I was looking for and really felt that I'd always been called to be. I think you used a phrase, something about being homesick for a place you never knew existed. Yeah. Play she'd never been before. I think that's the saying that it is possible to be homesick for a place you've never been. And um, that's how I felt about LMM. It was just an amazing time to be there. Um, Dick became a mentor to me as he did to so many people. When I, um, married my second husband in 2000, he performed our wedding ceremony and then my husband went on to paint his portrait. And, um, so dick is with me every day. Um, I think about him every day. He has just left such a lasting impression on who I am and who I aspire to be. How, how so?
Speaker 1:Because people don't know many who hear this, won't know who he was and what, you know. So why was he different?
Speaker 3:Dick felt that the highest calling in life was to be useful. And, and it was, it's both a simple and yet a very complex idea. The highest calling is to be useful or simply to be useful. And so what does that look like? That looks like getting out of bed every day and thinking, what can I do today to make the world a better place or to make someone's life better? And so what he did when he was called to Cleveland after the hough riots in the 60s, was to start a responsive social services agency. And so what that meant was, would assess what was going on and create programs to address those issues. So he started the community reentry program to help people who were trying to reenter society after being incarcerated, to find a way that made it less likely for them to commit crimes that landed them back in prison. And he started, um, a program programs that worked with people with disabilities and he started programs that worked with, um, runaway teens and youth aging out of the foster system. I didn't know until then, but if you're in the foster system, you're not adopted, you turn 18, you don't have funds to take care of yourself. It's okay. Here you are at the nearest homeless shelter with all everything you own in a garbage bag. So I just felt like I was continuously whacked upside the head by these concepts. And um, you know, I certainly didn't grow up unaware of the world. I grew up in Bedford, didn't know it was an inner ring suburb until I was in my twenties and I didn't really, you know, we didn't really think about that. It was a great place to grow up. Definitely a blue collar community. Um, I loved growing up there. I felt like I got a lot of really strong values that stayed with me, but, um, I wasn't aware of of what it was like to be someone, um, who didn't grow up having two parents who loved them and supported them or having some of the opportunities that I had that I took for granted. And so LMM was probably the best education I ever had. I learned so many things. I was told that the people that I was working with, um, within the programs, at least 50% of them were people that would receive those services. So 50% of the team at community reentry where people who had either been incarcerated or involved in the system at some point in time, but I was never told which 50% that was. It was up to those people, um, on the different teams to come to me and say, Hey, this is my story. And many of them did. And um, same thing with, with a lot of the other programs, people would kind of graduate from the program and, and want to help other people kind of navigate what they had gone through. And it was just such an amazing time to be there.
Speaker 2:I'm going off on a tangent here, but I look at our political, um, uh, environment right now and how often we uh, generalize. Uh, so I, I understanding other people and their situation seems such a valuable place to go through. Uh, cause I, I just think it really shapes you.
Speaker 3:I agree. And I think some people, like my daughter took a year off and went to 30 some countries within 11 months and she came back with kind of the same time type of attitude. Like it's really easy to judge and, or to categorize and then judge people. So, um, people who have been incarcerated are this way and people who live in this country are this way. It's only when you can meet a person sometimes that you can just come from a completely different perspective. Right? And so you hear someone's story and you understand how things contributed to who they are. And if this is a person who was incarcerated, it's really hard sometimes to think about how would I have navigated that system? What would I have done? I think about at the time I separated from, from my husband, um, and took my little girl's home. What if I hadn't had a home to go to? What if my parents were deceased or unable to help me? What if my husband had been abusive, which she was not for the record. Um, you know, I would have had to go to some kind of shelter with my girls and then what kind of vulnerable positions, what I have put them in, you know, so much of life is a choice, but so much of life, our choices are limited by the opportunities that, that we start off with and the opportunities that we gain along the way and only so much of that we can drive ourselves.
Speaker 2:Right, right. At that moment it's, it's choices, but yeah, he's not the wide spectrum available always. Um, so philosophical, we've gotten let, let's go back to what did you actually do at LMN? So
Speaker 3:I was the first director of communications and I'm at the point that point in time, our development team was three people. So I felt like my first week everyone, every program manager was at my desk saying, I need a brochure. And I would say, okay, so tell me how you're going to use that brochure. And there'd be like, well, what do you mean? And I said, well, why do you need a brochure? Well, because I need a brochure. And like, okay, well we're trying to understand who's the audience for your verse or is this this brochure to promote your suit, the services of the program so that more people want to participate, is it for funders? And so, you know, they'd never had someone strategically doing communications. They had a lot of people that were just responding. So my charge was really to get in front of the moving train and help direct it. And so why do we need these things and what should they look like? And I thought that, you know, people were going to, um, try to get me fired in the first couple of months because I advised, um, Dick and the board that everyone should give up their individual newsletters and we should create an agency news letter. And that it would streamline the process, it would strengthen the brand because we'd be representing LMM. And there was a lot of resistance to that and people were not happy with me, but, um, Dick said that we should all get on board and try it and see what happened. And, um, and it was extremely successful. We saw individual donations increased about 40%. Wow. The first couple of years, um, because we put a remit envelope in, not because we asked, but we just, you know, and there was resistance to that. I'm just like, what do, we shouldn't put an envelope in there. It'll look like we're asking for money. It's like we are asking you for money. That's part of what we're[inaudible], you know, even when we didn't say that people, you know, if you like what you read, you might want to support these programs. So, but it was amazing. It was an incredible time. And I felt like I had a lot to contribute. And, um, and during that time, you know, I really got to know Dick and, and I insisted that he write a letter and then it be on the front of every newsletter and it set the theme. And he was very much a man, um, that wanted to be behind the scenes and wanted to let other people lead the parade. And he wanted to empower them and support them. But the reality was that he did represent LMM in so many ways and no one could move people the way that he could. And so I was always in the position of saying, you want me to help LMM this is how I can help. LMM It's not just you, but you are essentially the front man for LMM and, and so kind of bringing him out from behind a little bit more definitely helped the agency as well.
Speaker 2:Before we move on with you, I just wanna take a moment cause since it's about transitions, so you went through a lot here. I'm just curious whether, do you think you navigated those well, um, all those changes. Is there any, because I want to kind of get to do in the business stuff a little separately from the freelance and moving and all this stuff. Um,
Speaker 3:my life has never been what I thought it was going to be and it's never been what I, what I, I want to say what I wanted, but that's not really fair. What I thought I wanted I think is more accurate. So I'd moved around a lot. My Dad was a city manager and then completed his career with 25 plus years as chief administrative officer for the city of Shaker Heights. And, um, when I was a little girl moving around, I was very conscious of reinventing myself and I was an introvert and I just really wanted to read books and be left alone. So it was really difficult. And, um, I knew from the time I was a little girl that I was going to be a mom. I don't know why or how, but um, I just remember saying to myself when I was about nine years old and we first moved to Bedford, when I have kids, I am staying rooted. I am never moving. I am not doing this to my children. And what nine year old thinks that way? I was, I was strange, but um, I was really adamant and then I was really adamant that I was going to be a teacher so that I would have more time to be with my kids. Well, my sister's a teacher now let me tell you, you don't have more time. So, um, but no, I never did anything that I thought I wanted to do necessarily in my career. I certainly didn't want to be divorced. I was Catholic and um, you know, divorce was not an option. Moving was not an option. And being a single mom was not an option and I've done all of those things and so my life has not at all. I thought it was going to teach school and write the great American novel on Summer Vacations while I was raising my children. That was my picture book life.
Speaker 2:Do you know those funny? I could, yeah. I remember trying to figure this out once. It's like I had a ranch and there were forces. I don't know where my kids were.[inaudible] I'd go talk to people about life. Yeah. Oh Geez. Okay. None of those, I guess I'm talking to people about life. I got that piece. So I don't know how many
Speaker 3:people actually realize the life they always imagined if they do good for them. But then, I don't know. I think that, um, I think I'm a better person, a kinder person, a wiser woman because life has not gone the way that I planned because I had to learn and adapt. And, um, I'm a big believer, there's a saying that through breakdowns come breakthroughs. And I believe that's been the mantra of my life in, in a lot of ways. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's, let's take you back to LMM. This should have been like, and it was a very wonderful time and a good time, but then things change. So what changes? Um,
Speaker 3:so dick searing passed away from cancer and um, it was really a traumatic time. And um, he had planned for that. He knew it was going to happen. He had George her back who had been, um, the founder of community reentry before Charles c came and took that over. Um, George stepped in as interim director and that was planned for 18 months while we looked for a new executive director. And George was very clear that he was not there to make any changes that he was there to maintain. Um, at that point it had been in motion for 2100 lakeside, the men's homeless shelter here to come under LMM. And that did happen. Um, but George was really about keeping everything even keel. But the organization changed because you can't keep it the same, you know, it's chemistry, it's different people. And um, and so changes were happening and then a new executive director came on and more changes were happening and I felt really out of step and I just felt in my heart that my LMM was not going to be the Lmm of the future. And that's not to say that it was a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, for me it was a painful thing. Um, change is hard. Good change is hard, bad changes, hard, all changes hard. Um, but I decided that I needed to leave and, um, I looked around and I was, um, I started interviewing and I was very to being named the national communications director for, um, an organization that was somewhat, somewhat similar to Lmm. I'm not going to name it, but, and then I didn't get that position. And, um, and so I thought, you know, maybe that's really another good thing that I'm meant to learn that there isn't going to be another LMM of my time right in that way and I should do something really, really different. And so I did, I ended up accepting a job at Joann fabric and craft stores. And, um, I was the manager of public relations. I got to open stores, I got to develop their philanthropic footprint, which was the part that, um, so two things attracted me. So I've always said in my career, I've been attracted either by the ability to be really creative or the ability to do good things. I mean, I guess to create some social good in this position offered me both. And so I loved it. I had a really big creative budget. I got to work with national media was probably different ones. It that was, it was, it was great and I loved it. And, um, I was given so many opportunities there. I really was. And I'm so grateful for the time that I was there. Um, I developed philanthropic footprint further. We started a teacher rewards program, um, there that continues. We did, um, local giveback, which was something that my team initiated where, um, if we opened a new store or we refurbished a store, we would show up. And, um, if they had a sewing program, we would donate sewing machines. Um, if they didn't, then sometimes we would donate like Cricut machines, which teachers were crazy about and paper and things like that. And so we were giving back to the local community, usually through the school district based on what their needs were. And I really liked that. And then something really wonderful happened. We had, um, an engagement survey done. So Joanne, I'm strategically looked at their culture. They found some opportunities and um, they decided to address it and things aligned so that instead of that going to the HR department, that it actually came to me. And so I was given an incredible intern from Case Western Reserve University, getting her master's in organizational development. And she and I through interviews and work together, developed a program to create more employee engagement with the, within the company. And over three and a half months, we developed this program. It was presented, everybody seemed onboard and then crickets and nothing was happening. And so my intern left case, she went to Portland, she got married, she got on with her life. And I'm sitting there strumming my fingers going, why isn't anything happening with this? I know, you know, everybody was so excited. What's wrong? And um, I realized at that point in that I had a really restless spirit, I think
Speaker 4:after leaving[inaudible]. You know, it's so funny. I know. I mean, it's, so, it's such an
Speaker 3:like, Duh for people who know me, but for me, I'd never really realized that. And so I felt like, okay, I've had this lovely budget and we've developed this philanthropic for a program and now we have this engagement program and so what's next? And so I left. Um,
Speaker 4:I don't know why are people too, I don't know. There's something to be learned. There is, I was on the diversity, they formed a diversity
Speaker 3:cabinet. All these wonderful things were happening, but I just wasn't happy any longer and I just felt like I was called to the next thing. And so, um, I left there and I took a position at the Cleveland Institute of Music. And so I thought, here it is, I'm finally an education and I'm head of full marketing and it's awesome. And all of this. And um, I was from the beginning, not a culture fit. I was not a musician. I was not classically trained. Um, it, from my perspective, that should have been a good thing because they needed people like me to take an interest in the arts and support the arts. And, um, you know, I'm married to a fine artist and I'm fine artists being in that he paints, um,
Speaker 4:portraits and landscapes.
Speaker 3:Um, and music had always been a passion of mine, but, you know, I wasn't classically trained, I didn't speak that language. Um, and I thought my job was to kind of translate it, but I never felt like I always felt like, you know, I was clunky. I never felt like I really fit in there and I tried to make it work too damn long. So I was there almost three years.
Speaker 4:Of course. Um, you know,
Speaker 3:yeah. So during that time I just, I was banging my head against the wall and I was think, trying to think about times that I was happiest and you know, I knew I couldn't go back to LMM. It wasn't the same. Um, they're doing great things. They are good. Um, for sure. And Joanne, you know, I'm sure it continues to grow and evolve and do great things, but I just felt like I was called to someplace else and I couldn't find the job that I wanted. It was crazy. I was looking, I was looking at nonprofits, I was looking at companies, I looked at government agencies and there was nothing that appealed to me. And so in my mind, I'm thinking, do I go back to freelance? Well, my problem with freelance, which I've done, I didn't mention this, but since I graduated from college, I was always doing side work because I'm one of those people that if I don't have one too many balls in the air, I'm not happy. I, I seem to be most comfortable with a little bit of discomfort. Um, and so I thought, what if I go back to freelance work? What would that look like? Well, my problem was I was always a victim. My success in that I would get too much work and I never wanted to be responsible for other people. You know, I didn't want to have a business. I was not, no,
Speaker 4:no, no, no, no. Yeah, it's zero.
Speaker 3:Again. I was supposed to write the great American novel, weren't we all? Um, but I, I liked kind of, um, just kind of funnel following my own course. But the idea of being responsible for other people did not appeal to me, but it just, it was that, it was like that nagging thought or that song that you couldn't get out of your head. And then one day my daughters were home and my daughter looked at me in the face, it looked at me and looked at me in the eye and said, mom, why don't you just start the company that you want to work for? And it was like she'd heard the song in my head and I said, that's what I've been thinking. But at that point, I was past 50 already and I said, but our night, too old.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I don't, aren't entrepreneurs suppose
Speaker 3:to be like in their thirties, just having just enough experience to, you know, make a leap of faith and think that they know enough to do it. Like by 50, you know that right,
Speaker 4:right. What could go wrong here? You see everything that could go wrong. There's a lot of things. I don't know.
Speaker 3:No. And, um, but I did it. So I actually left my job before I'd started the new one. I connected with someone that I'd worked with at Cim and we kind of kept in touch. She left about a year before I did and told her what I was thinking about doing. And she told me that she'd always wanted to be an entrepreneur and maybe, you know, she could join me in starting this. And, um, so I took a month, really the month of December of 2012 and created this business and named it and build, started building a website. Um, something I learned I could do and never again want to.
Speaker 4:So that was one of the things. Um, I think process of elimination is a very valuable process. It's painful, but I, I felt my whole career, my whole job, career was process of elimination. So yeah, that's not quite the right fit, but I learned something. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. So I learned,
Speaker 3:yeah, but I spent that time really aspirationally creating this, this agency prosper for purpose. So I'm doing well so you can do good. So the philosophy was if it was a business that was doing well but really needed to show that kind of shared value or shared purpose with our customers, we could help them create that philanthropic footprint. What does that look like? What is really true to your brand and your mission that would bring, bring that extra facet to what you were doing. And if it was a nonprofit, then we could help them do better. Right? So they're already doing the goods. So then we want to help them do well. So prosper for purpose, doing well, doing good kind of thing. So your clients range the gamut really. Yeah, they did. So out of the gate, um, more nonprofits who are interested in having us help them do good. That has changed over five and a half years. So that is really good news. Um, and so while I was doing this, my partner at the time was out there getting the business, you know, she was the initial rainmaker and, um, we worked together for about a year. And, um, just like a lot of partnerships, you start seeing the vision differently, right? And so she had a different vision for where she wanted the business to go then, then I did. And um, so I bought her out and she started her own business and I continued with prosper and it was a time for reflection again, like, okay, so this didn't work. So now I'm the rain maker. That's going to be a challenge because I, you know, my fundraising background was creating annual campaigns, doing events, working on, um, some capital campaigns, which capital campaigns are bringing development strategy to marketing tactics. Um, so that was really, that's still a really comfortable place for me. It's storytelling and getting people to give you money because they believe and buy into your mission. So business development was really like something that was another leap of faith for me. Um, but surprisingly I found that because I really believe in this company and what we're doing, I'm actually pretty darn good at it. Yeah. So that was an interesting discovery because I wasn't selling something right. Right. I would just sit down and, and talk to people about, you know, where their disconnect was with their organization, what, what is the problem you're trying to solve? And if I couldn't solve it, I would connect them to someone who could. Okay. And so it was really easy to opt out, or if it didn't feel right, I would say, you know, I'm probably not the best fit for you. Um, but over time, what I learned was that the clients that I'd had introduced me to new clients. And so to this day, I would say it's not as much as it used to be. Two years ago, about 90% of our work was referral work. I mean, the referrals were coming in from work that we'd done. We wouldn't even be completed with a client and they would refer us to someone else. Um, or people I knew through Lmm or people I knew through other jobs that I'd had, would refer clients. Now I would say it's maybe, oh, I'd have to like really research it, which I should. Now, I'd say it's, it's more than 50%, but less than 75% is referral. Um, but sitting down and just really listening to people and what they're trying to do with, with their company, whether they're sort of low preneur or it's a government agency, a nonprofit or for profit. And then, you know, saying, well these are the things that we're skilled at that might help you and are you interested in talking more about this? And, and that's really how we've developed a lot of the, the client relationships that we have now. And, and it's been great. And so in January we'll hit six years, January of 2019 will be six years since we launched prosper for purpose. And the agency's changed a lot and I've changed a lot and I've learned so, so much. Let's talk about that because I did want to ask you about some of the pitfalls. Yeah. So what kind of challenges have you faced and how? I think the first challenge was, um, separating with my partner. That was really painful because it, it reminded me almost of the breakup of my marriage. So here's someone who you've planned this road with and you've had all these firsts together. So the first client, the first launch of the website, the first this, the first that, and then suddenly they're not there any longer and you say, oh, we're going to, you know, stay close and support each other, but life shows up. Right. And there was an overlap in what we were doing. I mean, it wasn't exactly the same, but there was enough. And, um, you know, and as we drifted apart, that was, and still remains sad to me because it was somebody that I really cared about, but she's doing well and I'm doing well. And, um, so it's all good. I would say the next thing was, um, you know, I had to make a big decision about having employees and that was something I was always resistant to. So, you know, being responsible for other people. My children were successfully launched and I felt like taking employees on was like taking a family again, you know, like, these are people whose job security I'm responsible for. And so I did that slowly. Um, and we built a really solid team. There's someone on my team who's been with me from the very beginning who I'm actually was on my team at Joann Fabric and craft stores. So what I found was, um, building teams of people that you've either worked with before are, or are really comfortable with their work, um, through either people you know, that, okay, so now I've worked with this person and they're rough. They're saying, Loraine, I know how you work. I've worked with you. This is someone that would be good for you. That's really been helpful to me. Um, getting the right people at the table and getting the right people on the bus are the constant challenge because when you're a small business and when you're, I mean, we're going to be six years old. So, you know, we're not quite in that startup phase any longer remorse in a scale up phase. But scaling up maybe, I think I found it more difficult than starting. Um, so because you are trying to really grow and invest in that growth and that brings it's own challenges, you know, do you scale up with employees before you have the work? Or if you scale up after you have the work, what do you lose? And then what happens if it goes away? So, um, we had to do our first layoff this year and it was, um, really traumatic. Like it was traumatic for the people I had to lay off. It was traumatic for me. And it wasn't because we lost business. It was because we had contracts that were dependent on government funding that went on hold and we had three of them at the same time. Like that could never happen, right? How could that possibly happen? And, um, and we didn't know when. So they all said if, and when we get the money, we're coming right back and we're saying when, but the reality is once it goes on hold once, you just don't know what that looks like. Right? And so I had to let people go and I had never terminated anyone until I started my business. And, um, and it's really hard to have to lay people off, um, and tell them that, you know, you'd like to tell them that they'll be back in a month or two, but you can't and they should plan on finding other jobs because the reality is you don't know if or when that business, we'll come back. And I will say that's the hardest experience that I've had in, in running a small business.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I have to say my husband and I ran her own business, but we did stop it at the two of us because I could never get past the hurdle that, that you did. Now we, I can relate in terms of we formed a lot of associations, but it was more, you know, there's the give and take of that. So you have associates and they're running their own business. But that means you can't direct them or take their whole, you know, client, you know what I mean? If you have a really big job, you know, they may not be there for you. So I can see the pros and cons. So, um, yeah, that, that, that feels so heavy to me to both, um, the good heavy of having them rely on you and having them there and the family you build around you, but also again the negative when you can't continue to sustain them at least on a short term.
Speaker 3:Right. So one of the biggest lessons I've had in my business came through doing the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small businesses class. Um, so I wish that I would've done it. I wish that I would have applied the first year I was in business because, um, I think it would have saved me from myself. And some of the decisions I made, none of which were, um, you know, major setbacks. But certainly there were some basic things that I learned, but I had this realization as we went through the course and I don't even know what necessarily what lesson it particularly was, but I did this big mind shift and the mind shift was no matter how much you care about your employees, they are not your family. They are caretakers for your business and your business is essentially your baby. Right? Like the business is the family part. And I'm sure there's many people who would disagree with me, but I needed to get to that mind shift because otherwise I'm the kind of person that would sacrifice my business for my people. And I can't do good in the world if I can't do well. A business as a force for good has to be a business first. And that's the honestly the biggest lesson I had to learn as an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:Um, other things that as we talked about it are, you said you haven't made the same mistake twice, so you make a lot of mistakes, but do you think that's a good motto? I don't know. I think that's a good thing for people to hear. One that you will make mistakes, you will make mistakes.
Speaker 3:And I, I haven't made exactly the same mistake more than once, but I have made the same mistake more than once. I, so what I know about myself is that, um, you know, and I'm not a Myers Briggs like fanatic or anything, but I have always known that I am not the personality type that makes the best entrepreneur because I am a people pleaser and I am someone that it's very easy for me to understand where other people are and other people are coming from. And, and I think in my personal life, that's an asset. But as a business owner, it can be a liability. I'm not going to say it is a liability. It's not, you know, you want to understand, and I've always encouraged my team to bring their whole selves to work and that, um, the job that you choose, and I believe this should enable the life that you want to live. You know, it starts with what do I want my life to look like? Not what do I want for my career. Um, if you're growing up thinking, what do I want to do for a living, that's the wrong question. What do you want your life to look like? What do you want your, your legacy or, or whatever that you're, you know, that calling for me it's purpose and so what is your purpose? And you can have many purposes. It's not just one thing. I mean, when I, when I was young, I wanted to make a difference and I wanted to have a family and I felt those were my twin purposes as I get and, and I've had my family, I may have different purposes, right? And so that, what does that look like? But I think that we do a disservice to young people trying to figure out their career by telling them to think about what they might enjoy doing. I think the bigger question is what do you want your life to look like? Do you want to move around? Is travel important to you? Is having a family important to you? What kinds of things enable the life that you want to have? How do you want to feel when you get up in the morning? If you hate Mondays, you're probably not doing the right thing. I personally love Mondays. I can't wait to get up and start the week and see what's happening. So, um, I feel like I went off the track.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, there was a period of time when I was in the corporate world where I would get up on Mondays, on every day and I'd want to throw up, this is not a plug and play. Um, on the, on the one hand, if you're in the corporate world and you love your job, Yay. Sorry. It just wasn't me. It wasn't me. And what it was was it was too much of it. Again, I could succeed at it. I could do it. Um, I had the skills, but I didn't have, um, that, that wasn't who I was. And it was a lot of facades, um, that I felt every morning I had to put on, you know, when, when you and I started the interview, we talked about, okay, we're going to put our armor on. We'll get ready, uh, to, uh, you know, start the day and do this. But sometimes, you know, if you have to put too much on, um, you know, maybe it's time to change, change the battlefield, whatever bad analogies, I think all around. Um, you mentioned, I'll get, get us back on track. What has enabled you, um, to do this business? Okay. So what does somebody need for support? Or at least what did you find you needed for school?
Speaker 3:Oh, you need your, your tribe. Which, and I will define that a little bit differently than I think we come to think of it. So first and foremost, I could not do what I do without my husband. My husband's amazing. He supports me 100%. Every time I've stumbled and questioned what right do I have to run a business? You know, he's been right there picking me up, dusting me off and saying, you know, this too shall pass. And, and so I think you do have to have, um, some kind of support system in your day to day life, whether it's parents or siblings or best friends. Um, a supportive spouse is amazing and I'm so thankful for that. And, um, I raised two fearless daughters and so they're also part of my inner circle. So just to circle back to that for one second and then I'll, I'll talk about broader what you need to do this business. You know, my big thing was I'm never going to move. I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do that. This is what I want my kids to have. My daughters were home for Christmas a couple of years ago and I said something, you know, I was reminiscing on how my life had not looked at all like I wanted it to. And I had some regrets about, um, how I raised them to some extent. And, um, sorry, Gosh, um, this is actually a good thing though because, um, I'm not sad. I'm actually really happy. But, um, they both turned to me and they said, you've gotta be kidding. Like, we are so much stronger and we feel so fortunate to have had the life that we had and, and you know, the moves that were so scary and living with our grandparents was such a blessing. And, um, just the things that I thought could potentially harm them had actually made them stronger. And so my daughter Lindsey lives in Honolulu and juggles like five different jobs because her passion is travel and freedom and she wants that flexibility in her life. And my daughter Courtney, um, who has a degree in fashion merchandising, works for the Armani offices in Manhattan and lives with her boyfriend and their little senior rescue dog. Um, they both have these great lives that I never would have dreamed of. Um, so when I was young, I thought that at one point that maybe I could go to New York City and you know, and even study their, I'd briefly entertain that. And then the idea of it scared me to death and I put that thought away in a box and never opened it again. And so, you know, I went to Nyu where Courtney's boyfriend is getting his master's and, um, got, he took me to the library and I got super emotional. Like I'm so glad other people are doing things that I only dreamed about, but they, they believe that they're possible. So, um, my, my children inspire me back. And so what I will say about breakdowns leading to breakthroughs as sometimes those breakthroughs have that ripple effect and really being breakthroughs for other people. And so for me, those detriments really what I saw as setbacks actually really helped me raise strong women who feel really empowered and in charge of their own lives. And they in turn empower me and you know, and kind of kicked me in the ass. And then from time to time about that as well. And so that's my, my inner circle. And my parents are still very present in my sisters. But beyond that, get a good accountant, um, get a good lawyer. And this was advice that was given to me and I did listen to, and it was really smart advice. Don't think you need an office right away. Don't, don't start putting out money to launch your business, do it, you know, bare bones and, and then just keep reinvesting in the business. So that was some of the early advice that I got that I did take. And so, um, I very rarely took profits out of my company for the first several years and I continue to reinvest back into the business. Um, this is about me making a living. This is not about anybody getting wealthy. Okay. So, um, so that's a different too. Maybe, you know, I, I don't feel like I don't want to have a big business. So my dream is not to get big. My dream is to continue to have impact and to do well by doing good. And so having the right people at the table to support you and having friends that, um, are doing similar things in their own lives, not necessarily in the same business, but to feel like you're not alone, that there's people that you can say, hey, I had to lay some people off and it really sucks and I'm feeling really bad about, you know, myself right now. How could I not have seen this coming? Well, you can't see some of these things coming, right? Um, but having people to give you good advice, having good counselors around you as well. And so, um, you know, my husband gives me good business advice. He's really a smart human and my accountant gives me good advice and my attorneys give me good advice. And, um, it's really important, you know, you think when you start off as a solo preneur sometimes like, you know, you're not really concerned about that because you think, well, it's just you, but then all of a sudden you're working with clients and then you're working, you know, hiring people are contracting with people and those things are really important. So don't think that you're too small to have an accountant or have an attorney because, um, you need to take care of yourself, get business insurance. Those are things as soon as you form or pull your LLC or however you're going to incorporate, you should have those in your back pocket because you have to be safe, you know, before you go out in that world. Two questions. First, is there anything that you look back and say you would've done differently?
Speaker 4:Lots of things. Okay. Um, things that I can talk about. Um, yes,
Speaker 3:yes, because otherwise it's dead air.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We wouldn't want that to happen. Um, I think I would
Speaker 3:be more careful about the people that I, I brought into the company, especially early on. Um, I made some, yeah, I made one major mistake. But, um, you know, there's people in your life that, you know, from one perspective, so friends, let's just say friends. Um, you know, I hired a friend and it was catastrophic and it, it ended the friendship and, um, this person was not a good fit for the business at any time. And um, and it's hard to extricate yourself and then you lose the friendship as well as that. But I'm always that kind of person that says, Oh, you need a job and you do something that, you know, we do. You should, you know, you should work with us. I don't do that any longer and I haven't done it for a long time, but I did do it in the first, you know, first couple of years. Another thing that I did was, um, I really wanted to help people get their first jobs. It's so there's so many amazing college graduates out there that just can't get their first job, you know, and um, and I wanted to help in that way and I did and I'm happy that I did it, but I think that everything has to be in balance. And so what I would do differently would be to be more intelligent about the balance of the people that I was bringing into the company, if that makes sense. Um, I think in some ways I was kind of like creating space and building that space from people that felt called to do the work that I was doing, which is great, but you have to also have a balance in the skills that people are bringing. So you might be able to bring one or two people on, um, but they have to be balanced out by other people that are more senior level that can mentor them. And so trying to always keep the structure. And then I think the other thing that's really hard is to, you know, always go back to, um, getting the right people on the bus, but understanding that the buses on a journey and as your business grows, people on your bus will either need to switch seats or get off occasionally. And that's really hard for me too. But you know, it was like me leaving Lmm I probably did LMM a favor because I wasn't, I wasn't going to be able to be as invested in the next version of Lmm as I was in the version that I had. And that's been true for some of the employees that I've had and some of the contractors that I've had there, you know, invested in one version of what the company is. But as the company Scales and grows, you know, we need different skillsets and different talents and if people aren't growing with the company than then that's the point that it makes sense for them to, to find their next thing. And as a business owner, I'm on one side, but I've been on the other side as well and chosen to leave jobs where I knew, you know, I'm really not the best person for this organization. So it's, I think it's nice when you can realize that for yourself and choose to, to make a change. Um, it's hard to be on the other side of that. Um, so I think I'm getting better at all those things and I'm thinking about my business a little bit differently, but I will say every couple of years it's time to reassess and say, okay, look at the clients that we have now and look at the trends in the marketplace and look at how we're equipped to meet those changing needs. And that requires some difficult decisions sometimes. Okay.
Speaker 2:And since this is a program about transitions, maybe just anything else in terms of how to handle change, how, at least from your perspective, what do you think allows someone to do it
Speaker 3:better? I think you just, you have to accept the change. I mean, this sounds so trite, but you have to accept the change is always difficult and often painful. And that doesn't mean it's bad. Um, we've had some changes at prosper this year that at that as I was going through them, I thought they were the worst things in the world, but they've allowed me to reset and see things with a clarity that I didn't have before. And the agency that we're, you know, we're creating as we go into our sixth year is different than the one we were creating in our fifth year. Maybe it'll be different in year seven, eight, nine and 10. Um, and that's okay. You know, if, if you have to make difficult changes, you're going to get through it and just have that support system to tell you that you're going to get through it. And The Times where you think, oh gosh, you know, maybe I won't. Um, and be prepared that sometimes the things that you think are the worst things that you can possibly go through, end up putting you on a path that's better than what you could have planned for. Okay. I think we'll wrap up on that. Okay.
Speaker 1:So thank you. Thanks for sharing with us today. Um, that wraps up today's visit with Lorraine sugar, who shows us how it's possible to shape a job or a business that fits exactly who you are, especially when it doesn't exist before you create it.
Speaker 5:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:you've been listening to passing through life a show that explores how people get through major life changes. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple podcast that will help new listeners know more what to expect. And you can email me@passingthroughlifepodcastatgmail.com. Feel free to comment about this show or suggest people and topics for future episodes. I'm Leanne Bull Becker. Thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 5:[inaudible].