Although job changes are the most obvious transitions that Dave Clements has experienced, his story covers a broad spectrum of life's twists and turns and how to maneuver them.
Early on, Dave found himself counseling fellow employees how to brave those unexpected job changes by "riding the wave." (In fact, he has authored a book by that same title.) And Dave's penchant for constantly finding -- and creating -- new challenges eventually led him from management consulting into ministry, and then even to a continent on the other side of the world!
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NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 1.22.19. All portions are copyright 2019 Luanne Bole-Becker.
Although job changes are the most obvious transitions that Dave Clements has experienced, his story covers a broad spectrum of life's twists and turns and how to maneuver them.
Early on, Dave found himself counseling fellow employees how to brave those unexpected job changes by "riding the wave." (In fact, he has authored a book by that same title.) And Dave's penchant for constantly finding -- and creating -- new challenges eventually led him from management consulting into ministry, and then even to a continent on the other side of the world!
***************************************************
NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 1.22.19. All portions are copyright 2019 Luanne Bole-Becker.
This is passing through life. I show that explores how people navigate major life changes. Just how do we make it through what life throws at us. I'm your host, Luanne polled Becker. Our episode today is called riding the wave and it's an interview with Dave Clemens, a management consultant and also a minister and riding the wave just happens to be the title of a book that Dave has written about dealing with
Speaker 2:job loss. So welcome Dave. Thank you. You're what the more interviews that I conduct for this podcast, the more I'm realizing just how prevalent huge transitions are in all our lives, uh, that it's really one of the cords that binds us all together. You know, we change life changes around us and pretty much how we handle it is a big indicator of how well we're going to get on in life. Um, and the thought came to me today as I prepared for this interview. Um, you've had some really unique transitions, but at least early on, um, some of them might've been a little bit more universal in terms of job changes and job losses. I'm going to give part of David's bio, so I'll start with the official stuff. Um, you are reverend Dave Clements. You have an MBA n m a in organizational development at an m just kinda like getting masters.[inaudible] go for it. You can't have enough education. Yeah. Um, you're provided management, leadership and human resources, business development, fundraising for both small startups and big corporations. Um, but we met completely in a different context. Um, you're on the board of the Carolyn L. Farrell Foundation. Uh, it runs numerous arts-based programs, including many for people with dementia and their caregivers. So thank you for that because, um, uh, our life would be a lot less full without that. Thank you. When I told another feral foundation staff or that I was launching this podcast about transition, they were like, well, yeah, I have to talk to Dave that, so here we are. So let actually, since we've mentioned you, you have this stuff in organizational development that sounds sometimes like jargon. Yeah. If you could explain just a little bit, what is organizational development and how you ended up focusing on that? Well,
Speaker 3:there are many definitions for that. And really the easiest thing for me is my focus on it was to really look at the organization and you know, how is it running, how can it be improved? Where its strengths, where it's weaknesses. And so you can look at that structurally is what I would do as far as how are things organized. But every, every intervention I did involve people because people are the organization I know. And, and so, um, I really became, um, really interested in a lot of psychological testing type things that you could refer to that could help you understand people in behavior. And in Myers-Briggs actually was one that I use for a lot of years and a Myers Briggs is 16 different architypes that kind of groups, people based on behavior and based on what comes natural for them to choose. Um, and so that was something that, um, when I would go in and my work, you know, would have them take the Myers Briggs and then we'd sit and talk about it. Are you, are you a introvert? Are you an extrovert? Are you a sensor? Are you an intuitive? Are you a feeler? Are you a, um, thinker? Are you a j? Which means let's just get to it. And so, um, and I am an ENT Jay and every, you know, for the past 30 years as I've been doing a lot of this work and been familiar with Myers-Briggs, um, I've always, and I've taken the test over and over again. I've always come out.
Speaker 4:You stay the same. See, I've changed a little bit apparently. Thankfully I've gained some feelings. Yeah. Oh, I've gotten coarser on the feelings, but I still
Speaker 3:really all that is is it's kind of how your, you know, your favorite muscle, what you ling into. And so I really tried to like work on the feeling part when train and of course as a minister, that was[inaudible]
Speaker 4:probably one of my biggest[inaudible]. But, um, but the,
Speaker 3:the most enjoyable part of, of, of my work is consulting was actually just working with people and helping them to kind of come to realization of the fact that they had on themselves and on the organization and just on their own lives. And to help them to begin to understand and how they could change. And in many cases, people, you know, made dramatic changes in their lives. They left the organization, they started a company, a variety of things, but it was all based on, on really helping them to kind of discover who they were and, and how to utilize the talents. And so, you know, I've been doing that and I've been raising money for organizations and I started my own consulting firm on fundraising. And then finally it was just like, it's gotta be more.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I've said in other interviews, my career has been like process of elimination often, you know, I'll try something. And sadly at the beginning, a lot of it didn't fit at all. It was just, it was practical and I could do it well. Um, but
Speaker 2:then I think you start massaging that and saying, okay, which I do want to talk about that without going into great detail about your early jobs. I mean tell us something. Um, but what made you realize when it was time to leave? So I know you were doing something with, I think it was plastics, plastics, and then food and stuff. So, you know,
Speaker 3:I don't know, and I don't know if it comes from, you know, a Jewish mother,
Speaker 2:here's a plug for Jewish mothers.[inaudible]
Speaker 3:I had this natural kind of instinct that I can't, I can't really explain it other than the fact that I would get into something and I give it all, all I had and I'd set goals and all that other stuff. And then I knew that when I could accomplish the goals and it didn't require as much effort that I really needed to change and move. And that has really kind of been my mantra in all of my transitions in my life is okay, this is no longer challenging. In other words, I didn't have to really think it became more of just kind of a process. I always have like challenges and so, but it's no longer fun. It's no longer as exciting as it once was. And if I'm no longer excited about it, then eventually that's going to have an effect on everybody that I'm leading and working with. So what can I do? And that kind of became my thing and I always took, every time I made a change, I kind of built upon what I had done before. And in a variably, a lot of the things that I had learned from the previous experience I took into the new experience and um, you know, use them kind of as building blocks. So it was never, like some might say it was dramatic changes, but in the last one was, but um, but everything kind of built on each other.
Speaker 2:Boy, there's like three or four different directions I want to go. So let's see if I can remember one of them. You know, we were talking Myers-Briggs. Do you think different people are different though? So the idea that you didn't have enough challenge to some people that might sound like wonderful that they finally mastered some things. So I guess we're not saying that's universe think it
Speaker 3:in there is risk. Okay. And, and um, maybe it was just because as a little boy when I was told I couldn't do something, I found a way to do it or you can't do that because Dah, Dah, Dah. And I would do it anyway. Like I was a little kid to, you know, climbed on and I did do this. I climbed on top of the roof and thought, you know, I wonder if I flapped my arms quick enough. Can I really
Speaker 2:why?[inaudible] did too, that I of course want to comment.
Speaker 3:And I ended up in the bushes and my sister, my twin sister went in and told my mom and she comes out, she goes, so genius,
Speaker 2:I think I'm liking your mom. So, uh, I guess said
Speaker 3:it's just an inherent trait. And so I recognize it, not everybody. And through the years as I worked with clients, I recognize that not everybody is willing to say, okay, well let's try that and see what happens. You know, and, and, and so they're, they're aversion to risk is a lot higher. Mine is[inaudible]
Speaker 2:someone playmates less than an inch. And I guess it's just
Speaker 3:because, you know, um, there was always a question like, well, okay, what's the worst possible thing you could happen? You know? And I go, well, that isn't that bad. And then I think, well, what's the best possible thing could happen? Oh, that's pretty good. Okay. So, you know, we just kind of dive in and go,
Speaker 2:do you get uncomfortable? I mean, would it just, would it be a gradual realization? Because again, I want this podcast to hopefully give people like things to look for, whatever, in your case, at least when it was time to go, how it, was it a quick thing or you just kind of
Speaker 3:gradual thing. But it came to realization when I w the major thing, like this isn't as exciting as it used to be. And I didn't have to really, I wasn't challenged to really think how I'm going to solve this, whatever it might be. It was like, okay, we've been there before, so we'll just to apply this, you know? And then people say, oh, that's brilliant. I think, well, not really, you know, but, and that's when it, you know, that's when I think, okay, I need something more. I need more challenge.
Speaker 2:I want to focus on triple a, your work with, but so let's just get us to AAA. So you get out of college and so what do you do and, and what happens at AAA?
Speaker 3:Um, yeah. I get out of college and I went to work for a major oil company Tenneco oil in their plastic division, uh, and their food service. So I was a marketing and selling containers that, you know, you microwaveable containers, that sort of stuff. And on wholesalers that would then turn around and sell them to food, people who made them and then they'd go into the grocery stores. And um, and it was kind of, it was fun, is exciting because I remember my boss at the time, I was in California working and my boss was in wheeling, um, uh, Illinois. So, um, you know, it was my first real job out of college and I had to motivate myself every morning to get up because, you know, I wasn't going in office cause the offices in my house. And um, and you know, it wasn't that situation as you don't really find like someone's going to tell you what to do. That he by the last basically said, you know, hey, here's a book, just read it. This is what, yeah,
Speaker 4:we say all good luck. You know, I'll be in touch. So[inaudible]
Speaker 3:sounds really, uh, hard. And it was, but at the same time it was really grateful because that kind of helped set a pattern in my life. That first job. And then I remember it, I was working really hard and it's coming to a point and it was like, oh, I'm not going to get, I'm not going to get promoted here. It's just quite obvious and I don't know why, but, so then I put my name out to recruiters. The next thing I, I, you know, uh, got recruited by a food company and went to work for them and worked my way up and was a regional manager and all that stuff. And then they wanted me to move from California to Inglewood cliffs, New Jersey. And I said, you're out of your mind,
Speaker 4:no fancy snotty one from New Jersey. And it's not,
Speaker 3:I mean, and I thought this is probably a good time to like leave. And I went back to school and got, uh, uh, m a in an MBA. Okay. Not, I don't recommend that. Don't do that at the same time, but you know, that's what you did. I did. I, I've never done that before. So why not? No one tells you,
Speaker 4:well, a lot of people told me, but I was going to, I could do this, you know. Um, and I saw pros and cons to your approach. Yeah. I graduated
Speaker 3:and, uh, got hired by, um, AAA. Okay. So what are you doing there and, and kind of what happens? Well, they liked my org organizational development emphasis and they had an o d department that was five PhDs and I was the only master's, so, yeah. So, you know, and they were PhDs, which is kind of like all thought and much more theoretical. Yes. And I'm far from that time where we're kind of practical, let's get it done, let's find out, blah, blah, blah. So, um, eventually in a short amount of time, I think it was about six or eight months, um, the CEO, uh, went through organization change and he closed down the department per se in and got all of the PhDs basically let them go, you know, gave them severance packages and that sort of stuff. And then I was the Odi department.
Speaker 4:You are, it's
Speaker 3:like, well, you know, you have all this skill, which was like I had just graduated. I had really no experience, but I thought, okay, well, you know, so, and I did work there and eventually that, uh, he wanted an, uh, someone to take over, um, human relations and HR. And so anyway, I was pegged then I became as HR director and[inaudible], but everything that, you know, I'd learned in school and also in other things I began to draw upon. Okay. Uh, because it was like, wow, they think that I know all of this and I know this, but what have I learned and that kind of, and then who can I ask throughout this whole thing? It's always, I've always had mentors that haven't really been official mentors, but they've been people that I've turned out to and said, hey, I have a question. How would you handle this? How would you handle that? And those people have become through the job really became my own personal network. That, and they were always older than me and they were more seasoned. And so, you know, I learned early on that if you go and ask them, you know, they, they'll tell you all of things, great things that they did and mistakes that they made. And I just was like a sponge and soak that up. Nice. And I think that's something that people can do when, you know, it's really advisable because then whenever I was going to make a change, many of those people became lifetime mentors and I call up and it's, hey, I'm thinking about doing that. And they'd go, well, you know, or someone say, Oh yeah, go for it. You know, so, okay. Okay. Well that actually reminds me, I know I want to get to, um, the book that you wrote, but I think the book came out of, they asked you to do something not real pleasant at AAA at some point. What, what was that? They wanted to, um, change the way in which they were handling claims. And so they said, you know, if we offer, um, early retirement, everyone who is 45 years and older and been with them for five years or more, then we'll save all this money and then we can, you know, re Redo the way in which we do the claims and, and we'll set up this call center and everything will be nice and rosy and AAA has the main office, but then all these little small offices that some people only had three or four people in them. And of course, many of those took advantage of this cause it was a great[inaudible]. Yeah. So, uh, he found very quickly, even even I told him to think at this, but he thought I was crazy. Um, that there were, we were going to have situations where there was hardly anybody at that office. So then we had to go back and hire him back on contract and then do this massive hiring of all these people, which, you know, if a lot of them with thought, this all could have been avoided. But he was a CEO and he was his idea and he knew what he's going to do. And so, but you had a lot of people then, I mean lost their jobs too. Is that true or did well they, they lost their jobs in the sense that they retire. Okay. All right. But you know, his whole thing was how can we cut money out of the budget and in these AAA have a lot of people who'd just been hired there. And the idea was that once you get hired, you know, it was like used to be like the phone company, you know, you get hired and you're there for life, right? You get your packet watch at some point he wanted to try and in a nice way get them to leave. Okay. Right. So then what makes you write your book? Oh, well because the book came out a little later. I took a leave of absence from AAA because at the same time, the, the Internet explosion was happening and all these people were starting companies and doing all this things, and everybody was asking me, come be our HR, can be our HR. And I thought, well, you know, this is a moment in time and I really want to discover what this is. And so I went and said, can I take a leave of absence for a year and go out and work in these organizations? And so I went to work for, uh, an internet company and, um, we had to, I had to hire like 60 people in 30 days. It was absurd. It was absurd. But we did, you know, we had an organized way to do it. And then within 90 days we had to lay off all the company because they ran out of all of their money. I mean, and this was a common thing that was going on. And so, so, you know, and I was living in San Francisco and I was finally the bubble was bursting and, and all these young people who had come out of college and were being paid this ridiculous amount of money and they thought that that's the way the work life was, got a really rude awakening because then they were faced with, you know, no job and the economy had turned and no, no understanding of how to market themselves and are writing things. And so, um, because when everything's wonderful, yeah, you just kind of, everybody's looking for you. But then so then I started, um, I, I had started doing these workshops and in the workshops kind of turned into a book because they were really guaranteed as far as how do you handle this job loss, how do you handle, you know, termination and change, that sort of stuff. And one of the F, one of the ones that was always exciting was telling people to go and really think about, choose five companies that you'd like to work for a research them and don't, these couldn't be like the big huge at and t or anything like that, but just kind of local companies that you heard of and then get dressed in your business attire and walk into them. And if you want it, if you're interested in, in marketing position and say, Hey, my name is so-and-so and I'm just doing some research and I like to talk with so-and-so, just meet them. I know you don't have an appointment at Dah, Dah, Dah. And I said, if you do that times you'll get three, um, meetings and most likely you have a 80% chance out of those three of getting a job. And people would go, Huh,
Speaker 4:yeah. It's like, yeah, really. But the reality of the facts
Speaker 3:they did. But the other thing, and it still is true today, this still works today. I'm still people who do this, um, is that it gave you an opportunity to go in and actually look around and say, do I really fit here? You know, how are people dressed? How do I like to dress? How are people treating each other? Just walking in and how were you greeted? Were you greeted welcomely or you agree to like, what do you want? And that tells you a lot about the culture and the way the company is. And I would tell them that and sure enough they would learn that. And, and it's still kind of the same today, you know, I don't think that's changed in business and I'm not just, we think we've changed with all the technology. It's still people in the inside and people or people in relationships or relationships. And so that was one chapter in the book, you know, there was a way to kind of,
Speaker 4:so did you actually do that? I did it and I would teach people how to do it. Are we going to say, okay, I'll do the first one, watch and observe. Okay, now you're on your own. Yeah. Four introverts. Trying to move a bus, but you know what, even they
Speaker 3:debit, you know, I had some introverts and they did it. They did it. It was a real push for them. But the reality is, you know, back then, and even now, this has not changed. How do you set yourself apart in this world at work? And you know, back before the Internet and all that other stuff, I remember my grandfather saying, oh yeah, someone wanted a job. He'd come into my business and he would, you know, or she blah, blah, blah. And, and yet we don't do that, you know, because we sit down at our computer and
Speaker 4:right and send it a resume and never hear. And so,
Speaker 3:and so people who are on the other end receiving all these resumes, well, you know, it takes them five minutes to go out and meet somebody and now they can put a name with it. And they look at the resume, oh, this person's really qualified. Boom. It's an easy decision for them.
Speaker 4:And so it's a wait and refreshing and to make yourself stand out. Yeah. Yep. So the book came out of that and[inaudible]
Speaker 3:it was a series of 12 chapters and each chapter had ideas. And then there was a, um, an action thing to do, some sort of thing to how are you going to apply this? And the title writing
Speaker 4:the way it's going to be my next question, why is it called riding the wave is because
Speaker 3:you know, when you are, I don't know if you've ever served.
Speaker 4:No, I, okay. Yeah, I get the cod, the ideas,
Speaker 3:you know, when you're riding the wave, you're up on the surfboard and you're just loving it and it's going and it's, you know, and then s and then the wave kind of ends and you just kind of glide, you know? And so then you have two. You can, you know, get back up on the board and paddle out to catch the next big wave. Or you can just go in and sit on it, sit on the beach, you know? And, and, and so, uh, life is so much like that, you know, is that there's a times in our lives when we're, we're going along and everything's just going fantastic. We have the best job, the best relationship, the best place to live, you know, and we're just thinking that, wow, and we're riding really high and then something happens, you know, that changes that and suddenly now we're no longer up riding that wave. And so the idea was to give people this visual that, you know, you either go sit on the beach and wait it out, or you get back up and right. The next one that's going to come and look for it, right.
Speaker 4:Is going to happen is, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, you don't know how long that a, okay. Yeah. And it's not necessarily your fault, right. As I've talked to people, people internalize stuff that happens, or again, they thought it was a permanent wave. Yeah. We've had some that are predictive than
Speaker 3:so that, but yeah, but, but there's still a, an opportunity to change and embrace it and to move forward. And you know, um, I think that even nowadays, I mean it's interesting. I, I think this was about a year ago cause I still follow the statistics on jobs and all that other stuff. And they were talking to a bunch of millennials and they expected that in that group, millennials would probably in their lifetime have close to 30 jobs and um, and, and some of that was because of their own thing. Like, well this is boring. I want to move on. You know. And some of it was because the fact that all of the change that happens, you know, this company gets bought out, this happens, this causes whatever. Um, and they tend to embrace that as a way of life. And so that's something that we can really[inaudible]
Speaker 4:right. US older folks are still dealing with it. Well, because we were raised with that attitude like, Oh, you go to college and you get the best education. Well, first off, you go to high school, get the best education and then you go to the best school and then you get, and then you get the best job offer and you worked for the company and then you, then you live in a house and have 2.2 kids and a white picket fans and everything is wonderful and you never have any problems which is like say yes, no one had apparently. Is that what the mean or the medium? Cause I would like to know who made that up because I don't fit any of that. I don't even live in a house with a white picket fence. You know, like cat never have never will. So did you ever go back to AAA? I'm sure that I actually, um,
Speaker 3:when uh, the, the CEO changed after that cause the board kind of got rid of him and the new one came in and he said, we're going to make some changes. And I said, we've just went through massive change because, oh yeah, but now we're going to just consolidate all our emergency road service call centers and we're going to build one major call center. And that was about right,
Speaker 4:the time that I said I am not doing this again. So he contracted with me for a Uri Beck man. I stayed on for a year and helped him transition it,
Speaker 3:new call center and, and um, get it up and running. And then I left and I really thought, you know, I haven't really had a vacation for, I can't remember when and I'm just going to take some time off and just, yeah, you know, chill. And I took less than a week.
Speaker 4:Nice vacation days. I got a call in from a consulting firm and said, hey, you know,
Speaker 3:how would you like to do some fundraising? And I go, well I guess there's a correlation between fundraising and HR. It's all relationship building. Yeah. Okay. What do you have in mind? And they said, well, the San Francisco symphony lets you know, their campaign isn't going well and we need somebody to go in there and turn it around. We said, oh, okay.
Speaker 4:And you know, I had played, I mean, I was familiar with classical music I played in now all through high school. I played the Viola and violin too, so, so I had that background, but that was about the only thing that I had, you know, and uh, and that was another adventure in another fabulous wave. And it was just, you know, working with, again, with people and to Cleveland, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that also brings you, you meet your match. Yeah. Okay. Um, at some point then now where you working on your own at that point you start your own business? Yeah, I started my own
Speaker 3:business when I came to Cleveland. Okay. Um, and mainly because, um, I thought, well, I've been working for consulting and I'd worked with the, I worked with the San Francisco Symphony, the Cincinnati Symphony, the Detroit symphony, the New York Philharmonic, you know, and it was, it was great. It was like a niche and I kinda knew how to work with them and I just thought, well, I'm tired of all these, making this money for all[inaudible]
Speaker 4:the people I could do this, you know? Yeah. So I started it in like
Speaker 3:a first client was the, um, Cleveland Orchestra, K and I, so they brought me a Cleveland and I worked with them and then I d and then at the same time I got connected with the nonprofit, that C leveland Cord Blood Center, which was, u h, doing, u m, u h, harvesting and Bilko p ort cord blood from newborn babies. And then, u h, using that, taking out the stem cells and using those to treat leukemia patients. Oh Wow. They're still around today and they're o kay. They've merged with another organization. But, u m, so that was an exciting thing as well. And so I had those t hat I c ould still continue to do fundraising and, and started t he company. And you know, I remember I was, I was three months in and, a nd I remember thinking, o h, why I really made t his stupid mistake I s hould h ave. I learned, you know, this, it was a, it was a thing with a person. And, um, and, and then I thought, well, you dummy, you, you kind of figured that you had arrived, you know, now you had your own[inaudible], therefore you're not gonna make any mistakes. And that was just like a, uh, a big Aha. I'm thinking, Oh wow, who do you think you are? You become, you know? And, but at the same time, it was a really nice growing thing and, and uh, to realize that you don't have to know, either know how to do it or do it all yourself, that you can get other people and you know, and that's kind of the business you create it didn't you create a network? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yep. So, um, and I did that and you know, I started that and this was about 2009, 2010. And, um, and by the time 2013 had rolled around, I just was feeling like, you know, I, I started it from scratch, built it up. We had 10 consultants, we were doing a variety of projects. And I, I set up this model basically, which was that consultants in general know how to market themselves. And so I thought, well, if I had a team, I can go out and get the business, cause I threw the business context through the years and I can present, oh, you know, we can do this, this, this and this. So it was a model. It really worked. And these consultants then would, um, you know, pay a percentage to my company at the same time. I'd keep them employed and all that stuff. So it worked really well and it was working great. And, and I was starting to feel what I felt before, which was like, there's something missing. But this time it was a lot different. It wasn't so much, it was a, there was something missing, but it was, it was more missing in the sense that it wasn't like I needed to go make more money or I needed to climb another mountain or anything like that. It was something missing, more soul searching really more spiritually. And, um, I took on and off through 2013 and especially that summer, I'd just go to the beach, I'd go places and I tried to reflect. And finally, early one morning in September, it was actually September 13th, 2013 and I don't think it was a Friday. I can't remember if I had canned, crushed your fat. Yes. Um, I said, okay. I got it. Just kind of decided I'm either going to go, go forth and really make this company, you know, multimillion dollar or I'm going to make a change and I don't know what that is. And so I got up earlier in the morning, I witnessed the off, you know, I showered, shaved, it was like three 30 in the morning. I got in the office at four o'clock and I sat down and I'm thinking, okay, you know, what am I going to do? And I started searching on the Internet, you know, under various forms, kind of Google search, Google things. Like, like, you know, um, you know, what do you want to, you know, how do you determine what you want to do when you grow up, you know, and all this other stuff. But through that whole process, what came up was, um, on one of them was, have you ever thought about going into ministry? And I thought you are out of your mind. And I began to sit there and you know, I'd say, you know, at my point in life, this is the last change am I going to do? Please forget it. And I kept and I had every objection, you know, and after about six hours and you go just through this process of asking yourself, you know, you know, coming in, well, I'm too old, you know, I'm too, this, I'm too that I, uh, I'd have to get more education, you know. And I finally, it was every objection and answer came in either on the internet or just inside. And I finally said, okay, were going to go into ministry. I'm blown away though in some ways how quickly that happens too. But I love how you've described it, where it's, you didn't want to do it intellectually, but something kept you looking for the answers. And, uh, and then I said, okay, well, and way I kind of approach a lot of things was, okay, so now what needs to happen? You know? And then I went out to breakfast and I had a notebook and I wrote down and said, okay, these are all the things that need to happen in the next year. Because I determined that I was going to probably go to the unitarian school in nine years, that they always started in the fall, and this was the fall. So we have a whole year. So, you know, I went through the list and said, okay, and then I said, okay, wait, what needs happen in the next, you know, month and et Cetera, et cetera. And as the year went on, I just kept checking things off. So, and then I, and then I started in, uh, in the summer of 2014. So yeah, it was a big way. And, um, and I graduated in 2017 and, um, and I was never, ever since I went into, I was never sorry for it. I knew it was the right thing for me. And, um, and so the next exciting adventure came because, okay, now you've gone to school and you got all this, where are you going to work? And the opportunity came up within a matter of a couple of weeks to, um, to go to South Africa. And um, how did that happen though? I mean like do you put in, well, where are your, the unitarian universalists they have a office in Boston and people contact them with opportunities that they're looking for ministers and stuff because in unitarian universalism, the congregation is the deciding factor. So there's not like a higher organization that assigned to you. Um, and so the guy in charge of transitions, Keith crone is his name. He said, well, Dave, there's this place in South Africa. And I said, oh, what's your interest in? I said, ah, maybe an eight out of a 10, you know, I want some, I want some more information about it. You know, so then he sent me some stuff and then he connected me with the woman that was searching for a minister and we had a two and a half hour, um, zoom call, zoom, and, uh, and after, and at the end of the call, he still remember, I said, you know, we need to explore this further. And I, I, and I said, I don't know why I'd probably crazy, but, but you know, what do you think? She goes, absolutely. I'm thinking the same thing. So, you know, that led to about a month later and she had all her church board and we had another call and they asked all sorts of questions and I answered. And at the end of that, it was pretty much unanimous that this was going to happen. And then, and then you got into all of the, uh, challenges from the government of South Africa visas and all that defense stuff. Okay. But, um, it happened in, I landed there in December and started ministry and it's, it's an incredible experience to live in a foreign country. Anyway, I had to live my junior year in high school. I had lived in England, which not really a foreign country, but to some people it is. Um, but this was the first time that I'd ever actually lived outside of the United States for an extensive period of time and where I was the minority, not only because I was American, but because I was white and because I was male and I was living in a culture in a society that I'm in South Africa where, you know, whites are a small minority. And um, so that in the south brought all sorts of um, learning opportunities and experiences for me that I will, will always cherish and never free and, and be a part of. And if how beat it understand myself better. And what I mean by that is like, you know, I can't begin to understand what a person of color faces here in the states, but I can have more empathy for some of the things because I would walk into a restaurant and I would be the only white and they would seek me and they would treat me, you know, but everybody who waited on me was a person of color. Everybody who came in the restaurant as a person of color and their very beginning, you know, I felt like, here's this, excuse this bad pun, but anyway, all these, all this blackness and here's this a white dot. And, uh, and eventually as I begin to take, strip away my biases that I didn't know that I had, like, Oh, you know, oh, I've gotta be fearful, you know? Well, why do I have to be fearful if these people are just like me? You know? Um, Dan, it became an incredible experience and I can't remember exactly when that happened. It was sometime in the first three months of I felt like we were on the same plane, so to speak, you know, and then the color issue didn't matter anymore. Um, and because my biases, I had learned to face them and toss them away as biases and, um, and then to begin to work and it worked in the congregation. The congregation was, um, multicultural, multiracial in South Africa. They have, um, 14 tribes because if you go back to the history of South Africa, the regions were very tribal and they had chiefs. Um, the two biggest tribes are Zulu and Casa. Um, and, uh, so not only do you have the people of color, but you also have the tribal influence. And then, and then you have the whites, which are Afrikaans, some and some are British and the Africans do not like the British. And so you put all that together in a congregation where I had that and, and, and then to boot, I am the American, which is the ugly American who's coming here to tell us what we need.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Gotcha. I know my mind is just swimming with weather with it. Are you at an advantage or disadvantage? And I think you're at both. Um, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was a constant checking myself and saying, am I trying to act like a colonialist American, which we have done in the world, horribly. Uh, my opinion, or am I just rev Dave and you know, and, and in how do I, you know, check that. And it was like a daily thing to really say, okay, I'm here to help them but not tell them what to do. And I've already figured out what they could do, but they've got to figure this out, you know, so, so, but those things are very similar to when I was working with[inaudible].
Speaker 2:It's an organization right? This CV well, cause again, you're coming in from an outsiders perspective, you know, if you're coming into as a consultant. Interesting. Interesting that those would correlate. Yeah. I thought it was really development. I thought it was interesting
Speaker 3:too, but it did, it really helped me in ministry. And um, you know, we're still growing and we're still riding a wave and, and of course I, I came home to help with fundraiser and it's same time as I was getting my ticket then South African governments, oh by the way, we made a slight mistake and your visa is now expired. So you need to go and file again. And in South Africa you have to file at the consulate that is closest to you. So I live in Ohio, the cost is constantly is in Chicago. So, so when I came home I had to file it, the consulate to get the paperwork going, all that other stuff. And, you know, and that just, it's kind of like they'll get around to when they get around to it. So
Speaker 2:your poor congregation, I mean they didn't think they were saying goodbye to you for good that day. And um,
Speaker 3:okay. So just when we finally get it settled and preparing to leave, then I have this health thing comes up that says, well, I don't think you're going anywhere because your kidney isn't working and we need to really find this out. So new way. Hey. Yeah, yeah. Oh that's good. It's been a really new wave and it's been, yeah. And then that whole process, then the opportunity came to, uh, be the interim minister in Peoria, Illinois. Mm. And, uh, say interviewed me when I was oh by zoom when I was in South Africa and I said, well sure, I'll be home next year. Not a problem. So
Speaker 2:now your home sooner. Yeah. Well I guess it's next year. It is 2019. I want to go back at, so you can pick and choose whether you want to talk about the change into ministry or the change to South Africa. Just things that you did to prepare and things that surprised you. So again, someone making these kinds of transitions. I, I, I like, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, well, well, change in the ministry really. Th and, and the changes in South Africa kind of came together because, you know, I had, I had done an internship in a congregation at Kent, Ohio for two years. So it wasn't like I wasn't used to being in congregation and leading and directing and doing sermons and all that other stuff. Um, and that was a good building block for me. But when I arrived in, suddenly you are in charge and everybody is looking at you. And the other thing that they had expected, and this is part of that effective a Parte, is that they expected, well, you're going to tell us what to do. Oh, oh. And, and, and I had say, well, no, I'm not gonna tell you what to do.
Speaker 4:And part of that was because I didn't know what to tell them to do because I'm still learning how to be a minister. But we learned together, you know, and it was really[inaudible]
Speaker 3:he kind of, uh, so preparing for that I think was always being open. But more importantly, I, I started, uh, a daily practice of just kind of meditation so I could ground myself. And that really, you know, I can't recommend that enough because, uh, that helped me to be more open, to change, to ideas, to just a variety of things. And, and each day I meditate for about a half hour. And when I first started that I'm thinking, all right, it's been 10 minutes and nothing's happened.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 4:this is a waste of time. This is a waste of time, you know, cause me, like I'd go through and check called the list of everything that I had to do. And so I really had to work with it. It took about[inaudible]
Speaker 3:three weeks and at the end it's free weeks then. And that's, and I still continue to stay and that's been a real helpful thing. And then I'm part of the change also was, you know, um, and I don't know if everyone will experience this, but I had the unique experience that my lifetime partner was back in the United States. So not only did I have to get used to another culture, I had to get used to[inaudible]
Speaker 4:I know the cold spring go out without that person. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Who you always talk to, you know, or you think about, you know, and I, and, and, and, and that gave me a lot of insight of how, uh, people sometimes, you know, in their own lives, for whatever reason, the canola longer communicate through dementia, you know, they can only communicate the person. And I thought, wow, um, you know, it does really come down to us and, and how do we really reach in and really find a way to, to move forward. Um, so that, that was a change. Learning how to really, to be dependent upon Dave and not dependent upon somebody else and in ways that I didn't even recognize that I was dependent on.
Speaker 2:Okay. Right, right. Because it's so much just a part of your world. Yeah. Um, I am going to interject that with my husband getting a early onset Alzheimer's was the most severe loss, was to not have that other person that really understands, you know, whatever your relationship is. In our case, we'd been together 30 40 years and to not have that sounding board that, that
Speaker 3:other part just gone. Yeah. The change was just, you know, recognizing that and then also learning how to find happiness by being alone, you know, and being an extrovert, you know.
Speaker 4:Oh cause I was gonna say, what's the problem? I ain't got no problem with that. That wasn't being alone,
Speaker 3:being an extrovert. And they're in another country and they're like, you know, in a Friday night we'd come in the states, a Friday night we'd come, there'd always be all these dinner places, there'd be things to go, Dah, Dah. Now you're in a new country and you haven't made friends out. And, and, and it's learning how to just enjoy those moments of being alone. And so I rediscovered art and painting and started painting again and started writing again. And that's when I made, early on I made the decision, okay, I'm going to keep a journal every day. What happens? And so now I'm so glad that I did that because now I'm pulling from that and I'm writing a book called when the elephant laughed, which is about my experiences in South Africa. So I mean,
Speaker 4:we talked about the loss of not at the loss of a relationship, but the loss of the easy communication and access.
Speaker 3:Um, how important from your experience has been having a supportive spouse? Oh, I all through this whole change process. You know, I could not have done it if I didn't have that. I know going into ministry. I remember when I, when I told him and uh, he said, you know, he said there's something really important to have to tell you, but we were, we had to go to a fundraiser and we only had like five minutes to change and get ready to go, which is typical of our crazy lifestyle. And, um, and I'm humming hind around and I go, I don't have to tell you. He says, okay, look, you decided to go into ministry and I go, well, yeah. How do you know that? Oh, I figured that out six months ago. I was wondering when you were gonna figure it out,
Speaker 4:and then did you say to him, why didn't you tell me or no, he said you had to figure that out.
Speaker 3:And then when it came time to when I remember, I told him about the opportunity to South Africa, it goes, oh, you need to do this. I'm like, oh, but you know, you're not going to move there and cause, no, no, but you know, we'll make it work. So, you know, that's always been really critical, you know? And I think other times in my life when I didn't have that, I always had my Jewish mother who would be my Nag, but at the same time, uh, very supportive because she, um, was a remarkable entrepreneur in her own life. She and other ladies just, you know, had the idea on meals, on wheels and bursted, so, Ooh. Oh, nice. That's a whole nother podcast. Is your mom gone? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I just have a note here to ask you about putting in practice what you preach. So do you live
Speaker 2:what you preach here?
Speaker 3:I try to. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I continue to meditate every day and that's been a real blessing in my life. Um, and sometimes that meditation is, sometimes I will read something and just think about it. Sometimes there's some prayer involved, but I, I take those 30 minutes and just relish them. And it works because I have a place where I always go to. When I was in South Africa, I had a chair and in my spare bedroom and now that I'm back home, I have a chair in the family room. You know, and it's, it's interesting because I think there's a lot to be said for that is when we really want to make changes. It's just those little things that we do that really, you know, it's creating that space that helps us to make that happen. You know, meditation is easier because I have a place that I go to same time every day that I do it. So it, it, it, it makes sure, and after a while it just becomes a habit that you look forward to. And then I look forward to NFI those days where it gets, you know, occasionally where whatever happens, then I miss that. It seems like I haven't checked in. So that's one thing I tried to do. And the other thing is, you know, I'm still, um, open keeping myself open to opportunities and to adventures, you know, and you know, and to kind of test that is that I'm, you know, I'm moving into Peoria, Illinois. My partner's gonna stay behind. Um, I don't know anyone there. I found on the Internet a brand new apartment that looks absolutely fabulous and signed a deal. I highly recommend this, but you know, who knows, whatever. So it's just kind of continuing of the adventure and the excitement of trying something new. You know, I have a good friend, she said, um, several years ago I made the decision that every week I was goin to try something new. And I think that that is, you know, and I f I remember that. And in her case, sometimes it might be that she, you know, she lived in an area for many years and so she'll say, I'm going to go down this street. I want to see where it goes. You know, and that's a little thing, but that's following that thing to try something new. So,
Speaker 2:well, there's so many things I want to add on and since it's my, I can go ahead first. The idea, I think people underestimate the importance of space. What you create the environment. And you know, yours is as simple as a chair, but we're sitting here in a room that, um, I've now converted into a space that I can create. And I, and I, again, I think we don't think it's that important. You know, you just clear off a few things, but if the space you're in is, is crowded and full of other stuff, it doesn't clear your line of Focus. Right. Yeah. Um, the, the, I love that your friend is walking down a street. Um, yes, shameless promotion, but these aren't moneymaking. So who cares? Um, I have a, a Facebook page called walking the two, one six, and it was a decision last year and I stopped it when my, I hurt my legs, but I'll, I'll restart it of just picking out a neighborhood that, you know, parked the car and go walk ideally by yourself. So it's much more meditational, um, and pay attention, uh, to the space because you'll be somewhere that you, you never were before and you're paying attention. Um, and the, the adventure, um, I remembered that on my first little laptop, a little compact. I had a little, a picture that I taped on it. It says life is an adventure to be lived, not a problem to be solved. I'd like that. Yeah. And that's so me, I'm always trying to figure out, you know, how to do this next thing. It's like, wait a second, there's something way more here. Um, so thanks for letting me talk here. Huh.
Speaker 3:That is along with that is learning not to settle. You know, I think as so many people, I remember there was a woman who worked for me when I was at AAA and she said, well, I want to go get, you know, I want to go back and get a degree. And I said, well, you're going to have to do something because on the hierarchy, you know, you can only get so far in the pay scale and if you don't have a degree then we can't, you know, cause someone set that up. And, um, and I said, you know, we, we've got money set aside, you can do this, you know, while she needed to do is take advantage. And she could've gone and got a bachelor's degree, but she didn't want it. She was willing just to settle. And I think there are a lot of people in life who reach a place and they settle and, and, and, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but at the same time, you know, don't settle. I mean, I'm saying it's not a bad thing, but I'm also saying don't settle because there is so much out there and, and we, you know, we got[inaudible]
Speaker 2:on life, we should like live clothes so soon. I found myself thinking a year or two ago, like I guess I don't have a lot of regrets but bemoaning the fact that I had not in high school learned certain technical skills cause I liked to work with my hands and I say, oh Geez, I wish I would've taken woodworking or something. And then thankfully the way my brain works, it's like Luanne, you potentially have 30 more years on this planet, 30 more years. You know, it's like if you want to learn that, I think you could do it now. And so I went off, I found a master wood carver and they went and did it. So I think, you know, we, we started this podcast talking about the white picket fence. There is the danger, gosh, I mean I at this, I see this in so many ways of there's this one way we think that life is supposed to be. And like, you get to your sixties or whatever, if you make it that far, um, but then you're supposed to retire and you're kind of done and in life ends and it's like, why would that be the case? So in all those, it's like, it's, it's this very strange, um, fake bubble, you know, we created for ourselves because we all agreed that there would be this one way to live life and it would be no perfect. Yeah. I know to not look outside of it and kind of go, you know, tap on the edges and go, I know if I like this, this, I mean, I, I just think that, yeah,
Speaker 3:there's so many things on my list that I still want to do. I mean, you know, like I want to go, uh, pear diving or whatever it is, you know, where you're sailing, parasailing.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It of like fairs, Ireland. Um, and I will, I mean,
Speaker 3:you know, and everyone goes, why do you wanna do that? I got, well, why not? Yeah. I mean, I'll, and it's not that I, you know, it's just, why not, you know? I mean, you know, who cares about, okay. So you know you might crash. Okay. Well you know what, you might pull out an intersection. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Be broadsided. I mean, my poor son looks at me because I told him I wanted to go sky diving. I found, Oh hey, that's on the list. Yeah, go for it. Of I'm thinking of go on the burning man festival. I know that. I will say I had been there once is enough. It took me three weeks of eating dirt and I said, I'm on Eric's on my dad. But it was an experience. So I highly encourage you to have that wonderful experience. What I loved was what I said that to hear this, my first sitting there with me and then you just kind of looked to me and said, you might wanna gonna think about it. I mean, it's like I could[inaudible]
Speaker 2:see our roles switching,
Speaker 4:believe that they're becoming the responsible
Speaker 2:and I'm just kind of like low. It's a do it venture. Let's try this. Yeah. Okay. Um, anything else you'd like to add? Thinking again, let's pull this back a little bit about transitions and people. What do you want to tell people?
Speaker 3:You know, don't live your life by fear.[inaudible] you know, uh, because what are you afraid of? You know, if you're afraid of failing, well, guess what,
Speaker 4:you're going to fail anyway. I basically, you know, that's just gonna happen, right? So,
Speaker 3:you know, so don't respond or do things out of fear, like, you know, because then you're really limiting yourself and you're limiting. And I think you're limiting your creativity. And I think you're limiting the resources and, and all the things that could come into your life because you're living your life by fear. You know, just kick fear in the butt and say,
Speaker 2:get the hell out of my life. So,
Speaker 3:all right. And then the second thing is, um, cherries each day as an adventure. And there will always be something to learn each day. And, and as a minister that continues to grow, I learned so much just from people and you know, they didn't know the day before. So, and the third thing is write a journal. Keep, write down the things that you're learning so that maybe not you, but maybe someone in your posterity has something to go back to and read that will then tell them even more about you than what they might never realized. So I say my three
Speaker 2:parallels the way stone for what it's worth. Thank you
Speaker 3:for sharing with us. You're welcome.
Speaker 2:So that concludes today's conversation with Dave Clemens, who's helped to see a myriad of life transitions and how you might navigate them. So from changing jobs, whole industries, he went from being an employee to a business owner, you relocated to a different continent. Um, everything. Um, and I love the riding the wave analogy, so
Speaker 1:thank you.
Speaker 5:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:you've been listening to passing through life. I show that explores how people get through major life changes. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple podcast that will help new listeners know more what to expect. And you can email me@passingthroughlifepodcastatgmail.com. Feel free to comment about this show or suggest people and topics for future episodes. I'm Louann Bull Becker. Thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 5:[inaudible].