Transitions thrust us into new worlds.
What's it like when that new world is an ocean away? And in a foreign country with another language and different cultural, religious, and political perspectives?
Our podcast guest, Kevin Risner, was an English major whose love of the language led him in a variety of directions, one of which was to teach English to students in Istanbul, Turkey.
Follow along as Kevin not only moves to a foreign country, but experiences transitions involved in evolving from student to teacher, and also constantly expanding from teacher to writer.
***************************************************
NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 11.21.18. All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.
****************************************************
Here are links to some of Kevin Risner's writing work:
My Ear is a Sieve
https://bunkysbooks.com/collections/bottlecap-press/products/my-ear-is-a-sieve-by-kevin-a-risner
Lucid
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#june
Poetry anthology that includes one Risner poem in it; all profits from this collection go to Save The Children
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#winter
Information about bombings Kevin Risner talked about:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Istanbul_bombings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings
Link to Pamuk’s novel Snow
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11691.Snow
Transitions thrust us into new worlds.
What's it like when that new world is an ocean away? And in a foreign country with another language and different cultural, religious, and political perspectives?
Our podcast guest, Kevin Risner, was an English major whose love of the language led him in a variety of directions, one of which was to teach English to students in Istanbul, Turkey.
Follow along as Kevin not only moves to a foreign country, but experiences transitions involved in evolving from student to teacher, and also constantly expanding from teacher to writer.
***************************************************
NOTE: This show transcript is still raw. Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.
This episode was recorded 11.21.18. All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.
****************************************************
Here are links to some of Kevin Risner's writing work:
My Ear is a Sieve
https://bunkysbooks.com/collections/bottlecap-press/products/my-ear-is-a-sieve-by-kevin-a-risner
Lucid
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#june
Poetry anthology that includes one Risner poem in it; all profits from this collection go to Save The Children
http://thepoetryannals.co.uk/#winter
Information about bombings Kevin Risner talked about:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Istanbul_bombings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings
Link to Pamuk’s novel Snow
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11691.Snow
This is passing through life I show that explores how people navigate major life changes. Just how do we make it through what life throws at us. I'm your host Luanne Bole-Becker. Today's episode is called shifting cultures. It's episode number 11, an interview with Kevin Risner. He's a published poet and writer and he's currently the ESL coordinator. That's English as a second language at the Cleveland Institute of art. So Hi Kevin. Thanks for joining us. Of course.
Speaker 2:Cool. Um, I like to start each episode by explaining how my guest and I know each other. In your case, I feel like I've known you at least in passing since you were just a youngster, you know, because our family and your family, we went to the same church for literally decades. Um, so I think I've thought of you more as a student because our paths would cross at church and in school. Yeah. And you're just a little bit older than my oldest son, so that kind of makes sense to me. Yeah. Uh, so, but then when I started paying a little closer attention to what you were doing over the last few years, it included the fact that you are living and working in Turkey and okay. For two years. Yeah. Um, you're now teaching and coordinating again English as a second language and you're writing, you're writing poetry and prose and mostly poetry. Right. I know, but still I'm starting to dabble back in said the pros, Carrie. Yeah. Hoping to get going a little bit more as the months progressed. Okay. And is the muse hits you? So hopefully over the winter break. Yeah. So it's pretty unique and those are powerful experiences. So what does seem a bit different about our conversation compared to some of the other interviews I've done? Is your transition seem fluid? Uh, probably less planned often or even expected?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say so. Um, especially when it come, when it came to, um, teaching. Okay. And the decision to have that as my career or decide upon that as my career. I never really, I mean I had thought about it, but in most cases it was something that other people had mentioned to me when I was in high school, when I was in college and like, Oh, you wouldn't make a really good teacher if I told them[inaudible] I'm going to um, school in English and I'm majoring in English. Like, oh, so you're going to be a teacher? And you're like, no. And right away I'm like, I don't know. I like, one of the things I've always wanted to be growing up in high school and just even now is I want to be a writer and that's the thing you wanted to do. And so why? I just, I just love stories. I, I started reading, you know, ever since I was, no, I haven't, I want to say five or six years old. My mom told me that when I was in kindergarten, I would take a book out and start reading it out loud and I would actually be reading, I guess to everyone else. And so my kindergarten, she'd be like, oh, this is great. Like, I don't have to do this.[inaudible] so basically, yeah, I would read all the time and I'm like, oh, it'd be so cool to like put together all these, you know, put together stories like this. So you know, and it, and it never really went away. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And what I, you know, I named this shifting cultures because I think you're a, of everyone I'm talking to you so far, you're the only one who has actually moved for a while to another country. And I think people may think about that, but then back off. So it's that. But I also thought you've shifted cultures as a student to becoming a professional and a teacher kind of, you know, like crossing the border. Yeah.
Speaker 3:For many years, you know, and up until, you know. Yeah. My graduated BW, Baldwin Wallace College, and then, um, then I kind of jumped all the way to teacher right away for two years. Then I went back to school to get my master's degree. So I was like student and teacher again for awhile. And then now again, full time teacher who wouldn't, I still consider myself a student in some way. Just kind of trying to learn as much as possible even though, you know, I'm not in classes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well one would hope. I mean let's be very metaphorical philosophical that we're all students. I mean that kind of makes life more interesting I think if you look at it that you're always learning. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. We can edit that out later. So tell me what was your first exposure though, to international travel? So, so we'll put aside the career a little bit and say, whew. Okay. Apart,
Speaker 3:you know, going to Canada when I was a kid, um, the first time I traveled abroad was when I was in high school. There was a Spanish trip that the instructor really wanted to put together. And so I thought, oh, this was, this would be kind of fun to do. Um, and so I was a part of that and we went to different parts of Spain for, I want to say a week, week and a half or so. And it was just, it was a lot of fun. Um, it was with a larger group of people, so I knew a lot of people, so it wasn't like, you know, really frightening experience. It's not as daunting, you know? And it was just really cool to just, to be a part of that culture. And also, you know, at the time learning a language, you're like, oh, let's see if I can try and use it in some capacity. So that was a fun experience too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Did you think then, I mean, was there any inkling then that you might make either going abroad or teaching international students?
Speaker 3:It was more almost like, oh, this is fun. I wouldn't mind going back abroad. So again, you know, cause I know me and my sister had traveled abroad, my brother had as, so it was more just like, oh this is, this is cool. Yeah. Yeah. So it would be a much later.
Speaker 2:All right, so I, your background is, and what is your degree in?
Speaker 3:Um, I got a bachelor's degree in English. Okay. And that in general. Okay. So it was a lot of literature and also, um, writing courses and I wanted to make that my concentration for the most part, just because again, that's what I love to do. That was what I wanted to do. So know I took journalism courses on any sort of writing course that was offered and I could take it. Um, that's what I did.
Speaker 2:So did you get part time jobs doing that or anything with writing? No,
Speaker 3:they're not really. Um, after I graduated, after I graduated, uh, Undergrad, I actually didn't do much writing. I just, I did writing for fun and I started writing stories and all of that, but I never really did anything related to publishing. Um, I was sort of in this weird kind of moment where, okay, what do I want to do, quote unquote, you know, as a career in like, uh, uh, uh, I had toyed with the idea of getting a master's degree, but then I'm like, I don't know if I really want to do that, like an MFA in writing, but, uh, that really didn't spark my interest at the time. So I
Speaker 2:was there anybody guiding you at this time? I talked to
Speaker 3:a bit with, you know, a couple people who were in the English department at BW. Um, the writing instructor. Um, when I started toying around with the idea of getting a master's degree, it was sort of almost past the point of submission. He kind of told me to wait until eyes, you know, did a lot more work with my writing and have a good portfolio or something like that before I would submit, which actually was a good thing because um, that helped me delay things a little bit. And that summer is when I decided, you know what? Um, I had a few friends who kind of mentioned the, the idea of traveling abroad again, um, or just working abroad and that, um, they knew some people who were teachers. Um, they taught English. Um, two people from, you know, uh, I think Korea was one location and some other countries and they thought, you know what, that was something you, you might be interested in because they knew I like to travel. I had traveled, I'd studied abroad as well. So there was, you know, all of those past experiences that kind of led them to think this would be a really good
Speaker 2:okay. And was that your first reaction when they talked to you, did you say, Huh? Oh
Speaker 3:yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because at the time I was, the, my main work after I'd graduated was bartending. It wasn't really exactly what I was going to school for. So, um, so at the, I was a little bit more amenable to my peers, um, advice or at least nudgings I guess. So. And I, and I thought about it and I'm like, oh, this is, this would be kind of cool. I mean, it would be, it would be fun to, um, live else for a little bit, um, do something. And I, and I really enjoyed, um, the language itself. I loved English. I took a course, um, this, it was called, the study of language at BW is one of the only linguistics oriented courses. So I was really intrigued by just the intricacies of the language and the history of the language. So I think that kind of helped. That sounds unique to me that you would, you would bring an aspect to teaching that perhaps not most teachers would bring this idea of just loving the, it was just reading so much and just seeing how words played with each other. It was just a, it's, I wanted to share my love of that, even if it were with people whose knowledge of the language is very limited. They only know some words here and there, but just that excitement I wanted to share and I think, I think it translated a little bit with, with the, with the students when I was in Turkey and then even afterwards, so. Okay. Well, let's get you to Turkey though, for, so how do you, um, how do you learn this, that you've heard that people are doing this? How do you take courses, difficulties? So I took a, um, it was, uh, basically an emersion sort of, uh, I guess a certification program. Um, so over the summer in 2007, um, the, the name of the company was Oxford seminars and I'm pretty sure they're still around. Um, but basically it was maybe about a month or so, um, over the weekend, very long courses, Saturday and Sundays where we had an instructor talking about, you know, the different methods of teaching. So there were more education oriented courses, but then also, um, courses related to just basic travel, you know, how, how does one live abroad, things like that. So it was a pretty well rounded program and we also had to put together a practicum, you know, also teach in front of everyone as if they were English language learners. So it was a, it was a really good experience for me. And at that time Sh uh, the instructor, she sort of told us a little bit about the application process of how do you apply for schools, um, outside of the United States, what the, what that process might entail, which could be complicated depending on where you go. So, um, so there was that. And so I got my certification, I want to say, was it, I think it was the beginning of August, so August of 2007. And so that's when I started looking around and seeing, okay, where would I like to go? And my initial, um, thoughts where Eastern Europe just because that's where my ancestors are from. Um, Slovakia specifically. So I kind of was looking around that area at first. And the good thing at the time was that as somebody from the United States teaching abroad, that was an area that was a little bit easier to get into just because they were starting to become a part of the European Union, or at least they were processing in. So, um, some of the other countries that were a part of the European Union such as Greece or France or some of those other countries, they preferred, um, instructors from the UK or Ireland just because of the whole visa process, red tape and all of that fun stuff as he changed. I mean, how difficult is it in general, don't know how difficult it is right now. Um, but I, and who knows how difficult it will be in the future with, you know, the current relationship between the UK and the EU, how that all will entail. And the next few years. But, um, at the time in 2007, it was very easy for people who, you know, are, were English or Irish or, um, to actually head over there and teach in parts of Europe. So Slovakia, other parts of eastern Europe, it was a lot easier. So you're aiming for, so I, so yeah. So I applied for a few programs in Slovakia and the Czech Republic as well. I think I looked at a couple schools in Poland, just that whole area. And, uh, the first few responses, uh, we're from the Czech Republic and they were straight out. Sorry. We don't know. It was, it was nice. They were nice emails, but it was not a polite rejection. Yes, yes. So, and I was, after a few weeks with very limited success, I was starting to get a little bit concerned. I, I honestly didn't know how long it was going to take for someone to say, Oh yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit more. Let's set up an interview to talk, anything like that. Um, so I sent a message to the instructor who, um, was a part of my, um, certification program and she said, well, why don't you branch out a little bit, don't just set your sights only on eastern Europe. And so, um, she had mentioned Turkey is one location. And um, at first I'm like, ah, I don't know. I really didn't think about that a country as a place I would be, you know, would be a teacher. And then as I was doing a little bit more research, I just decided to go with it and you know, apply to a few different places. And uh, um, this one, uh, language school English time decided to respond to me and say, Hey, let's, yeah, I'm interested. We are interested in that. Set up a time to talk. So, and then we talked and all that and they said, hey, when, when do you want to come and uh, teach, which it's funny[inaudible] I'm talking to. Okay. Yeah. I mean we had, it was a half hour interview or so, you know, about 30, 35 minutes, you know, conversation. And that was, I want to say and I'd say mid September I think. And they asked, Oh and do you want to, you know, come over and we can start setting up the process of getting residents or residents feast and all this other stuff. And so I think yeah, end of October is when I said okay that should be enough time. Which, and the time went really quick. Room went really quickly. Your reaction when you get off
Speaker 2:the phone cause cause this wasn't, again this wasn't what you were planning initially. It was more like okay and you probably weren't expecting to get this job. It was, I think I was more,
Speaker 3:I don't want to say numb, but it was more, it didn't process fully at the time. And I told my mom, my dad about it and then started telling a few other people about it and I think it started to sink in a little bit more after that. And it was more of a, Oh my God, I'm actually going to be moving in a month or so to another country. And I don't know anyone there. And I don't know the language and all that. Yeah. So yeah, it was, yeah, honestly,
Speaker 2:I had to look up Turkey. I'm admitting it exactly where it, because you have this, I had this sense and when I looked it up, I didn't feel that bad, that sometimes it's considered part of Europe, sometimes it's considered part of Asia. We think about it as mid east, you know, went with like the political stuff. So tell me, yeah, I mean, so how does both it yeah.
Speaker 3:Uh, it's, it's really funny, the boss first that cuts is stumble and half, that's the border between Europe and Asia. So the city is in bold on both continents, which is pretty cool. And, uh, I lived on the Asian side when I was in Turkey, so,
Speaker 2:but what was the reaction back then? Because right now, you know, Turkey's got some instability. Um, but like how did you know, family, friends react to, is that seen as a dangerous place to go or just very exotic or,
Speaker 3:I think both. Um, also I think they were also excited for me, you know, but I think there was some slight concern just because, um, you know, it's 2007 so the war in Iraq was still underway. And so Turkey was really, it was, you know, part of it borders or acts. So I think there was some concern there. And I think, I mean, I had to reiterate because, you know, I did do a little research center and Istanbul pretty far on the western side of the country versus the eastern borders of Iran and Iraq.
Speaker 2:So to prepare, do you think you prepared well for this? So thinking back
Speaker 3:some ways, yes. Just in general, just kind of what do I need to bring with me, you know, um, certain basic components. Uh, I felt as if one of the biggest things I felt I could have done a little bit better is learn a little bit more of the language. I took out a book from the library and just learn the basic, you know, hi, how are you? Sort of things. But I really wasn't, I didn't really spend a lot of time with that because in my mind I thought, okay, is this big city? Uh, don't, don't know English. I don't have to worry too much. Which, you know, that, that type of mindset, maybe not the best one to have no matter where you're going in the world. I mean, I just know that in Rome for example, in Italy, that's the same thing when I was, cause I visited there when I was studying abroad. And, um, depending on where you go, you know, there, there'll be people who will know the language, but you know, it's not as, you know, people aren't as knowledgeable as you might think in on the Asian side of the city where I was put up and wound up living when I got an apartment. After a few months there, um, there was very limited English, um, that people knew there. Um, my first day there. So for the first day, um, when I got set up and everything, um, at the, well they call it the lotion, the apartment complex, um, where I was staying, you know, in connection with the school. Um, I went out to get food and I just went to the nearest one of the nearest cafe slash restaurant and I asked him a question, LG, you speak English? And he's just like, no, that's basically all the English he knew is that, or just that question. He knows that okay, if all he hears the term like so. So yeah, that was my first kind of foray into the, okay, so not everyone is going to know things, so we're going to have to start adapting really quickly, which I wound up doing, which was, it's good. I haven't learned at least some of the survival skills right away of, you know, here are the things I need to know. Here are the terms I need to know. One of the other things I wish I did take a class. I never did take a a Turkish class there, but after, especially after two years living there, um, I, I felt I learned a good amount. Um, I remember going to the airport from where I was on the Asian side. It's a good, pretty decent like, you know, amount of time a drive there. I wound up having a, at least a very basic conversation with the cab driver, which was pretty cool. But yeah, that was one of, those are some of the things I kind of wish I did a little bit more of like first off learning a little bit more than I did when I got there before I got there. And then actually maybe taking a course, becoming a lot more, I don't want to say fluent, but having a much more advanced level of the language or advanced knowledge of the language than I did. Okay. I mean you've got a couple of pounds that sort of deal with the first impression. Yeah. My first, I mean the poetry book that or the Chapbook that I have published, uh, title is my ears, assertive. It, it chronicles a lot of my experiences when I was living in Istanbul. Um, and then other poems, most of them near to the end of the collection talk about a lot of the instability and some of the more political, um, that political situation that, um, was and is currently happening in, in Turkey as a whole. And sort of my reaction to it as well as sort of conveying what a lot of my friends who are still living there kind of what their thoughts and experiences were. So did you write those while you were there? Um, some of them, yes. Um, so especially these first two. Yeah. Yeah, because it captures, I assume then what you were feeling and since some of those transitions it's like, so, um, the first one, uh, in the collection day one is basically what transpired on that first time I was sure. So here's the, here's the, uh, the poem. Day One, the plane landed smoothly. I walked through customs, the overhead lighting, less clinical than in most airports. It was almost soothing waiting for an entrance visa. And then for my lone suitcase, there was my name in black block letters behind it. Someone from my future place of employment picking me up. He knew English, but his words were mumbles. At the outset. I tried to strain my ears to catch his narrative, but soon a wall rows between us in that van as we saw it across the Bosphorus, the yellow lines on the highway invisible. All I saw around me was a sea of Red Turkish flags flying out of every window draped across alleyways, fluttering from the flag poles by every Ataturk statue at every intersection. The following day was a national holiday. My new apartment set surrounded by identical buildings, offices and high rises, apartment blocks, and more Turkish flags. The Sky was gray that day. It mirrored the concrete endlessness of Hassan Pasha. My landlord took the reins. He said hello to me. Spoke one of the few words I knew Marhaba led me pass the front doors, showed me around the entire place, pointed out the various rooms and different objects named their Turkish equivalent. I would not each time he said a word, and I would say another word. I already knew Tom. Okay. A laid, I laid down that night staring at the ceiling of my new bed, but not really my bed. I started to read or Han pump moocs, snow, a going away gift from a friend. It was a book I did not fully appreciate at the time. Not until much later when I knew more about the city and the country where I would live for two years when I found out much more than ever than I ever thought I would about it. And Its history and its tenuousness snow held a double meaning like most things here. And a snow actually in Turkish is cars, which is actually a city on the, in the eastern part of the country where this book is set in and so, and the main narrator, I'm trying to remember his exact name, but it's kind of similar to the name of the city as well as snow and it's, it's set in the winter. So there's all these different meetings with the, the book, which is why I thought, oh, this is such a cool text. But anyway, I think that last sentence, do you want to expand on that a little bit more about devil meanings? Um, well just the idea of when we think about Turkey and when we think about, you know, a place that we don't know about, you know, we're going to see, we're going to have this perception of the place before we get there. And then when we experience it, when we hear what other people have to say about who live there, um, we're going to get a new perception, very willing to learn a lot more than we thought we would ever learn about the place. And then as you know, time progresses and even after you leave, you have that connection. You have that knowledge. And so when other things transpire, when you, people tell you about, you know, why does happening, you kind of have this, I don't want to say insider knowledge, but you know, there is this connection and you realize the complexities that exist, you know, in the world. So,
Speaker 2:and it sounded like you didn't bring a lot of luggage. Did you know it was a big suitcase, but it was,
Speaker 3:yeah, just one, a lot of clothes, you know, a couple of book.
Speaker 2:Okay. The second one I asked you to do is about the cafe.
Speaker 3:Oh, sorry. Or that, or is it just to save his arm? Um, yeah, this one is just another experience I had. I'm just at one of the bizarre, you know, a market place. I'm on the Asian side. Um, every Tuesday they would, it would be set up and all of that. And just, uh, one of the other experiences I had just, um, one that I really never had here. I didn't really go to any open markets much. You know, I would see the west side market for example, but that would, but I wouldn't actually be immersed in it and buy things there. Yeah. But here it's more, I'm actually getting buying stuff for me and[inaudible] and much larger to then then west side market. But when I, I just, when I think about going to the west side market now I kind of have that kind of, you know, trying to compare kind of how things are done, right? You have the vendors can of calling you over and like, Hey, you take this, you try this. It's kind of cool. But anyway, so the title Tuesday, bizarre. One quick gymnast leap down the road, you hail a taxi man, arms out the window holding a cigarette. He does not care for those new antismoking laws. He tapped ash over the loose change. So you don't pick any of it up. You want a short trip to the bizarre, you only want to photograph, take it all in hand tightly around your wallet, but you bring back a block of Pheta to royal eggplants, sprigs, a fennel, black olives. You are told to taste before you buy them, just to make sure they are what you want. That ancient grandmother winks and reaches into the olive barrel, takes the large pitted one grins and points. That's the kind to get here. And they're a seller chance Kurdish one hums near the discount. Onions, every single one in the crate. Shriveled, not worth the lira. You buy half a kilo, a shoe seller by your exit eyes. You glares that throw linen shrouds over the aisles and the bustle of shoppers, you turn one toe out of line, speak one syllable of English. Any has your thoughts. He keeps[inaudible] at those damn foreigners. Click clicking at postcards and forgetting what it means to be normal. But everyone forgets.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Ken[inaudible],
Speaker 3:how long were you there the first time? The first time. It was about a year. Oh yeah. And the same thing the other time. How did you manage it? How did it go the first year? Um, well the first year it was pretty good. Almost like a honeymoon stage for the most part. Um, where it was this, these new experiences, um, a lot of adapting, you know, obviously because of the language and just teaching you good at that. I'm adapting. Yeah. I'd like to think I get like depressed or it helped that I had the ability to communicate, um, with everybody. Um, from the u s um, I had, um, email, um, I had, uh, back in, back in the day a, Oh, was it aim? The instant messenger chat. I have that. Yeah. Yeah. So I was able to chat with people. Um, Facebook helped with that as well. I was able to share kind of what, how things were going and what I was doing and all of that. So in that sense, the second time around the same thing you do well, yeah, I take it. Um, I really loved it. I loved teaching. It was, I mean, of course, you know, the first few months you have to get used to everything and you know, learning about some of the, at least the grammatical terms that you thought you knew, but then you didn't know these technical words for them. And so after awhile you can get used to, you know, teaching, um, English to a variety of levels. So who are the students? I mean, who's taking these classes? Just about everybody. These are, these are these particular language schools. It's for, um, p, uh, a lot of high schoolers who are trying to get into the university. So people, um, who, you know, after they're done with I guess classes, they go to these classes. Yeah. Um, and do a little bit more English practice. Also a lot of professionals, a lot of people, um, business people will take these courses through their work. Um, especially if they had, um, uh, if they are a business or there's a lot of international, um, clout for that business. They, they want their workers to actually, um, no English pretty well because especially if they're doing work, you know, let's say Turkey too. I know tricky in Germany, let's say I'm having that English knowledge is really beneficial.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:So we've talked about that the language is different and maybe not understanding that, but how was it being, how is Turkey different than America? Um, I mean, the city itself is stable. It's just a huge metropolis. So if you think about a lot of other metropolises across the world, it's, there's a lot of different people there. Um, one of the biggest things for me, um, just because of growing up, you know, in Cleveland area, um, especially within, you know, the Lutheran Church for example, um, that was for the most part kind of what my experience was and I'm then going to assemble in a way I wasn't the minority, right? Yeah. Nine yet. Even liver. So like 98% of them call, you know, people call themselves Muslim. Even if a large number of them do not practice it. Um, just because big city, there is a large spectrum just like here, ideologies and everything. People who are very conservative, people who are very liberal, right? Depending on where you go in a stumble, I'm just north of where I was in, I was living in category, which is a very, I would say, Cosmopolitan area. Um, a lot more liberal minded. Um, if you go a little bit more north, um, in new scarf is it looks good. All right. I think it is one of the other districts north. Um, it's a little bit more conservative. You, you'll see a lot more women with head scarves, for example. Even Burkas, you know, um, that's something that, for me, I didn't, I really wasn't exposed to much of, and just seeing that was, it wasn't a shock, but it was just something I wasn't attuned to. So it became a very normal thing for me to see. It sounds like obviously there's a transition, you had connections to home, but it was not uncomfortable. It wasn't really, no. Okay. Um, and it's, when I look back on it, I was really, I'm, I'm personally surprised. I did pretty decently just because I think it was also because I had a lot of interactions with some of the other teachers. So there was that familiarity per se with people who spoke English. But then I also had the interactions with students, also other teachers who were Turkish. And so there was a, you know, that kind of mix. But, um, yeah, as somebody who is very, very much introverted, um, somebody who normally wouldn't jump into that tort sort of thing, where you're, you're, you move to a new place, you don't know anybody there. It's a, it's in a way, a really frightening thing. Um, and I want, I, I think I did pretty decently considering that. And, um, and I've grown a lot. I'm still, I consider myself an introvert, but I've grown a lot more extroverted and get a lot more and I just, I get a lot of energy within the classroom and I like interacting with students. But then there is that moment of, oh, okay, right. I need to rebuild. I needed to be energy for sure. See you come home. Were you thinking after that first year that you had come back? I'm not right away. Okay. Um, although, um, I know that there was this moment where I thought I would go back, um, or not go back to Turkey, but I got an email from a place in so lucky that I had applied to teach and they said, oh, we have this opening, um, if you want to, um, come back and teach. And at the time I started dating Mary and I thought, yeah, my wife now, my now wife married and a at the time I'm like, ah, I'm not going to go, I'm going to stay here for a bit. So yeah, it was personal stuff. Yeah, sure. It's good. Um, so what makes the decision that you would go back then? Because that doesn't seem to figure it out if you're dating someone might not work all that I needed to, I needed to know for sure if this is the thing I wanted to do with teaching was the thing I want to do. If I wanted to teach international students and I just wanted to a, I wanted just to experience Turkey as well. Again, one more time[inaudible] you know, that connection. But then also I really, I wanted to know if this was the thing and I wanted to know for sure is what teaching is the one thing I wanted to do. And while I was in Turkey that second time I applied to graduate school, at that time, I knew that if I wanted to teach back in the United States, that's something that I needed. So more practical elements there. Um, and so yeah. So after I was in Turkey, then returned back. Were you writing? So let's go back to your dream was to write, because you've reminded me that yes, your path was initially you want to write, you take teaching so that you're doing something with the language, et Cetera. Um, does it feed at that point you're writing? Do you feel you're more a teacher writer? Um, I'd like to say I'm both, especially now. Um, when I was living in Istanbul, I was doing some writing here and there I wound up getting an actual hard bound journal, which I hadn't had. I would, you know, chronicle things through an online journal basically. But I didn't have that, um, hard bound journal. Um, and doing that really helped kind of, I don't want to say open my mind, but at least allowed for all these thoughts spinning around to actually be on paper. And so I would chronicle things that were happening, thoughts I had and that led to, um, a little bit more of that, the more lyrical kind of types of writing. You know, when you think of poetry and I'm trying to tell the story through poetry as opposed to just, you know, telling a story just in the, this is what happened, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, yeah. And so that's when, uh, about mid 2008, that's when I started to really put together some poems about my experiences and that's, um, and it was, it's interesting, I kind of shared some of those poems with people and actually one of the people I shared the poems with was Mary and she was one of the people who was like, this is really good. This is some of the best thing is, is some of the best stuff I've ever read of yours. So it kind of really said, oh, maybe I may say continued doing what I'm doing with this. And so, you know, I've been journaling, you know, like I have my journal from right out there right now too. I've been doing that, I've been doing that for the past 10 years. And uh, um, yeah. And I'm still writing poems and all that fun stuff. So the, the other two pounds, oh yeah, she did consider, would those fall within what you're talking about now that those there lyrical
Speaker 2:and, or, or still more narrative in a way? I think this is the thing, like a lot of my work at camp
Speaker 3:really separate itself from an actual narrative. Um, some of them are a little bit more, yeah. Um, I would say not perceptual, but they're there. They don't have this set start and end. Um, but, uh, I think in some cases there is some of my work that has that component within them. So it's a bit unique. I Dunno. Um, the ones that you had mentioned that I'm, they could read, um, for, for today, they do have a very strong narrative element to it because they are stemming from my experiences there.
Speaker 2:Okay. I don't know if you, if you would, if you would. Um, I picked a cafe because again, this idea of being immersed in another culture that I think a lot of people have some fear about. Yeah. Um, and so I, I got, I thought both of those captured. Yeah. With cafe. It's
Speaker 3:interesting because it's also talking about the fears of the unknown or just preconceived notions people have, um, within the country. So it's not even as somebody who comes there as someone who's never been to Turkey and Mike have, you know, just assumptions about the culture, about the people. Um, this is actually focusing a lot more on assumptions. People within the country have that. I just, I realized right away, um, when it comes to just, if we think about here, maybe assumptions people have about people who are different than them from different backgrounds, people from who come over here, kind of like how I was kind of an immigrant, right? Same sort of thing here where, you know, they don't know the people, but you have these assumptions about them. So, uh, but this one is actually about, uh, someone, it's more of an acquaintance than anything else. But, uh, basically this person who, this is actually the second time I returned. Okay. The second time I was in Istanbul and I was wondering, Oh, where's so, and so? And, uh, I found this out from a friend of mine. Like, oh, this person isn't here anymore. There they went out, they went back to their family farm and they're there and they're happy and et Cetera, et cetera. So this is a cafe I, me and my friends would go to often. So, um, the titles cafe, you smile at each person entering your cafe dice in your hands to start back Emon beneath willowy lights that hide unwanted profiles and mask all actions through the binoculars of others. You practice your English phrases. Fake tingy faintly with Turkish superficial twists, catching on the smoke and the Chit chat after hours. A large party of us passing around the Naga lay pipe to catch the sweet mixture of rose and mint. Google Nani, the haziest of words, all three syllables, stretching for seconds. You never mentioned your ancestry to me, but I had heard about it from a friend off handedly after left to farm in a district part of the country. The silence on the topic of ancestry comes from wariness, unknown responses. When other people hear the k word Kurdish, what instantly pops up in their brains are evil terrorist, barbarian, baby killer without a second's thought. The dissonance stains the walls on names, on certain names, over letters that don't even exist in the dominant language. And still people will keep walking upstairs into the cafe, purchase t and Pucker lips on the mouthpiece of the Mar[inaudible] pipe, obscure their visions of others behind the curtain, not pulled back until later in life when some may be more comfortable with one another, but not enough to whisper the secrets that could now get one killed all our targets. Yeah. So yeah, the, the person is Kurdish and doesn't wish to share that because I mean for me, someone who is a foreigner, you know, there may not be that perception, but something that will likely not be a good idea to tell anybody coming into the um, the cafe because you never know who that person, what their perceptions might be about Kurdish people.
Speaker 2:And again, I'm trying to make the parallel. While we may have issues, we do have issues with different groups. I don't know if we have that underlying that that feels so, um, scary is all I can say. Yeah.
Speaker 3:The, the, the constant sort of, I would say him not mantra, but the constant information that gets shared is this idea that all Kurdish people are the terrorists, terrorists from south, the southeast that are coming there. They're there. I don't have the intelligence of the Turkish people in there. They're just there to bomb certain, uh, um, soldiers and just they're there to take over the country basically. And that's not really the case. At least
Speaker 2:the majority of people. You got to feel what it was like with that being in the hearings you and then hearing yeah.
Speaker 3:People saying, Oh yeah, the Kurdish people that, yeah, they're, they're stupid. They're, they're barbarians. They don't know. I know that they're supposed to be doing, you know,
Speaker 2:this again reminds me, I truly believe everyone should travel. Um, you know, and not just for fun, um, it to be exposed. You get so much of a new perspective on, sure. Not only your own life, your own country. When you see, oh my gosh, how is that possible? You know, why would somebody think that? Um, I know I asked for the second one and now I've even forgotten what that can go. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So this one is about, um, this is a district on the European side of Istanbul a bit further away from a lot of the touristy areas on the European side. Um, I actually had never heard of the district after, um, I think it was maybe just under a year. Um, I had been in Istanbul and so this is basically just a one very late evening basically go on is a place where a bomb exploded in a, um, let's say a Trashman I think it was, and I'm trying to remember the number of people who die, but it was a, you know, it was a very serious sort of thing and we had no idea about it. And it was actually somebody from abroad who had texted a friend at the party saying, are you okay? And we're all like, when they had the bombing happened, it was that same day. Okay. That's pretty close. Instant. It's not just a site, they, it wasn't like two days later or something. It was that same day. And apparently it just, it made the news read hall who way in the UK. So it was this weird sort of, yeah, we're fine with what's going on here. And then we found out we were all kind of like, oh my God, like this happened. So, um, so yeah, we have the best view here. Tiled rooftops coated with microbes that had to have been eternal dust that would code our lungs in the stagnant summer. Me, asthma with the stacks of apartment blocks, rickety and pliable like our thought processes are sense of reason leaning on ledges. Half drunken and melodies are 10:00 PM Sunday evening assembly reinvents weekend workers who are disaffected by Istanbul's Ans untranslatable melancholy. The word for that is who's in it doesn't exist in the summer or to hidden heavy and speckled with clouds and somewhere. Stars all masked and feverish. Our roof pokes the sky. Beer can stack and pyramids and my bare feet latches onto the grime from a v from a year of no mops. One friend receives a message from far away asking if he's okay. Of course we're all okay answers, but of course everyone isn't. Not on the European side. One Trash Bin, Smithereens all around that spot at gaping manhole, charred remnants of stone, loose pavement, dumpsters, sides of apartment blocks, limbs, skin puzzle pieces, reddish, Masih paint. Tomorrow the bombing, we'll have plastered TV screens and hardware stores, endless film full of whaling. Women, the mothers bodies not clearly defined because of the shaky camera. Renders are unblemished. Selves mortified, ashamed that we simply keep walking around and whistling beneath toasty summertime sun. There is a brief touch of fear, but it disappears instantly in the calm of twilight minutes after the first message. Those people we know and love who are far away far from our grasp. They are the ones who fear the most and they always will. The scene replicates here and there in other places, not just here, even back where they think they are safe. We think we are safe on rooftops every single night. Stars of of stars clean, clear, shimmering emblazoned with some kind of brilliance that the clouds slinking over us. Try to obscure. So are you different because of experiencing that or that sort of thing? This, this particular, the bombing or just starving can broaden it? Um, it brought me down to Earth a little bit because I remember there was a really horrible bombing that happened in Istanbul in 2003. Um, and it was a, it was the British embassy. And so that, that one, that particular bomb killed hundreds of people and it was a really huge moment just because of its, you know, how horrendous it was. Um, and I actually totally forgot about it when I started applying. And it's something, you know, when you think of all the horrible things that are happening all over the place, just because, you know, we're pulled in so many directions, we hear so many horrible things. Um, we forget about them quickly. And I think I realized that again when that happened and like, oh my gosh, you know, you know, anywhere, you know, something like this could happen. And I think about that now too, in the u s like when you get news about another shooting that happens at mass shooting that happens and you, you, you kind of stop and you think, oh my God, this could happen any place and you know, we're not going to be ready for say for it. And I think that that moment where we, I found out about like, oh my gosh, I mean it works. It's far, you know, it's symbols huge. It's sprawling and we're on the complete opposite side of the city. But still learning of that sort of thing happening, it kind of stops us for about, it stopped us for awhile and we're like, wow, you know, that's horrible. You know, like the next day she's like, you see the stuff on the TV, you see all these, you know, reports about it. And in my head I'm like, I feel perfectly safe though right here. And, but then, you know, you get the messages, oh, are you okay? And the same thing happens like let's say earthquake hit in another part of Turkey. All you hear is earthquake in Turkey. Everybody freaks out like, oh my God, are you okay? Oh, your check. And I'm like, are paying. Yeah. So that moment really kind of struck me like we all these, these, these horrible things happen all the time and, and we always kind of return right away and maybe it is a natural sort of thing we returned to this equilibrium or just like, oh, I feel okay, everything's fine, blah, blah, blah, blah. When, um, you know, not, it isn't really fine.
Speaker 2:Now I'm going to bring you back to Cleveland and we'll talk about that, but I want to make the segue that you have, you teach students from other countries and you were talking to someone from the Honduras, from[inaudible] thing. Yeah. What did they tell you?
Speaker 3:So this was, yeah, this was last year during the fall semester. And um, we were just, it was during a conference. I have conferences with my students periodically and I don't know exactly what led us to the, actually talking about, um, the, I think it was the Las Vegas shooting that took place last year. Um, but he had mentioned, uh, that just sometimes when he's here, he feels as if he's a lot less safe in the U S which in my mind, I'm thinking, wait, but you're from Honduras and everything and you know, about all of the, you hear all these stories about just all the violence that happens, happens within this. Like especially the Capitol City there. And he was from the capital city. You need, you just said, yeah, but I know where I'm not supposed to go. You know, within the city, you know, there are places you don't street, you don't go down and all of that. And here it's like, you know, these mass shootings, you know, you have no idea where it's going to happen. It could be, you know, and you know, it could be at a concert, it could be, you know, in a, in a movie theater in or at a school, you know, a college campus and you're like, you know, we, we can be prepared as you know, we can be prepared for but we, we aren't, you know, in a way, you know, it's so it is that it kind of like disconcerting feeling when you have somebody else from, you know, especially from outside the u s kind of tell you about kind of their thoughts about, you know, what things are like in the u s especially a newcomer here
Speaker 2:and especially again, yeah, we have these pre conceptions of other countries, other cities. I know my son has lived in Chicago for many years and I would say I'm going to Chicago. It's like you can't go to Chicago. There's all those shootings, all that violence. Yeah. Yes, that's, yeah, there are particular places you probably want to be more careful. So I think it's healthy for the people in the US to understand. It's not, you know, just because you think that wine doesn't mean it's true. You, you, you, you blanket a country, a city of people and you make them all terrorists, you make them all island. Yeah. And the same thing is true happening back at us and we know it's not true here. That's interesting sting.
Speaker 3:It's, and I think a lot of times it is this kind of preconceived notion about, um, a particular ideology or anything like that. Um, and the thing I think about often is names, you know, just think about, um, like I taught for example, a couple of Hussein's in Istanbul. Um, couple of Brock's actually it's interesting you know names, but yeah, it's interesting cause it's just, those are just common Middle Eastern names. Right. And you know, I just remember, I think it was Hussein, I just remember a couple of the students wanted to have lunch, you know, with the instructors. Cause sometimes we get co-instructors for a particular class. Yeah. And so we went to a cafe nearby. And so, you know, there was about an hour before I had to teach my later class. And so we sat down and Hussein orders a beer and I'm like, oh, so you know, you have this kind of, okay, this mix of, okay, he may consider himself a Muslim, but he's not a strict Muslim. You know, you have these perceptions of people and maybe what they believe, but then you know what, there are other elements that'll surprise you about them, so.
Speaker 2:Right. So stay open to that daily. Yeah. You're now at the Cleveland Institute of art teaching English to students coming in now who are foreign?
Speaker 3:Well, um, when I got my master's degree, I came back, um, to the Cleveland area. Uh, now my wife at the time, um, my girlfriend, um, Barry was still finishing her phd at Case Western. So, um, that was one of my main motivations with that. Okay. Um, but, uh, yeah, you make decisions. Yeah. Uh, but, um, but yeah, I adjuncted at multiple institutions around the Cleveland area. I taught at Tracy, John Carroll University. And, um, in 2013 I started adjuncting at the Cleveland Institute of art and they were trying to increase the number of international students, um, to come to the institute and they were starting to become a lot more successful and admitting students from abroad and they, they realize that they needed somebody to really, not just teach one class but also organizing, um, kind of help out with orientation, guide them along throughout their time there. And then as well. Like right now I'm helping good number of them, their final year, they have to do a defense of their work. Um, and so involved in that of course is presenting on their work and then also writing about it. So there's a lot of that, um, that they, um, need assistance on. So I kind of help them out with that as well. So, um, that kind of led me as[inaudible] into this full time position. And so at 20, yeah, 2015.
Speaker 2:Okay. Um, I know when we talked initially you said sometimes the knowledge of technology and platforms is different, sometimes the ability or the, um, the exposure to certain topics. You had mentioned that they were reading, um, I think some, some books about a transgender person that, so again, I just want to explore again this it's cause I think that is a transition in thinking again, if I understand
Speaker 3:did that and in that case, when we were, when you had this text about LGBT issues and someone who was a transgender woman and kind of her transition, um, uh, as a teenager, um, that, that content, that topic, especially for some of my students who are from China, uh, that was something that many of them did not have exposure to at all. And so, um, it wound up being a really successful class that I had. And it was a, it was a smaller class as well. Um, but it was, but having that smaller class really helped being able to have discussions and just talking about, okay, what, what is, what does transgender mean? What does the word mean? What is, you know, and do they have a comparable word? Um, actually I didn't ask that. So they were able to have that. We were able to have these conversations, um, about LGBT issues. And though they may not, and some of the students went to high school in the u s so it wasn't just straight from China. Um, so they had a little bit more exposure to some of these concepts. Maybe not, um, the, the concept of transgender, but, uh, just, um, just the gay and lesbian community and just, it's something that they'll experience, they will definitely experience. So it was good for them, for sure. Hmm.
Speaker 2:To, to me it's important that people think about different cultures, different people. We don't all have the same background. Oh, node hall, you don't have the same beliefs. Even the family grew up in a different family. I mean, like each of those shapes you, and that in itself is a transition when you start to think about and start to really deal with people. If you can allow yourself, I guess, to transit out. Yeah. Um, of the way you always thought the world works. Yeah. Following in your footsteps. I, there's someone thinking of either to work abroad in some manner or again, I'm making a liberal arts career. So you could pick either of those. Any thoughts, advice, uh, um, I would say
Speaker 3:don't be afraid to test things out. Um, don't, you know, you, you may have a particular goal in mind. You may have, you know, you want to go to a certain location or just visit somewhere or change careers. Um, don't be afraid to just test the waters. Maybe, um, take others' advice. Um, that I found that, you know, that to be an essential component because I mean, just thinking about all the people who told me in high school and College, Oh, you should be a teacher. At first I was like, no,
Speaker 2:no, not at. Look. And now I am full time. I'm
Speaker 3:a teacher. So, uh, you know, it's despite your own initial preferences, you know, other people know you as well, not just you. So you know, just, you know, you might not choose kind of what they want you to choose. But just, it's what I, my students, when we do peer review sessions, when we have other people look at each other's work, they're going to give recommendations to you. That doesn't mean you have to always do exactly what they say. You kind of see what they're recommending and see if it does work as you are going over and revising. So it's the same thing here when making decisions are kind of doing something new or you know, taking a one 80 on a career, maybe, you know, at least thinking about, you know, those recommendations. You know, I, I think that's, that's good. And again, don't be afraid. That's, that's the thing. Don't be afraid to try something new.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, wow. Great Segway to my sort of last question. Do you fear future transitions? Do you think that the fact that you've gone through all this stuff, has that prepared you more for
Speaker 3:what might happen next? Yeah, I think so. Um, I'm not sure. Obviously you write what the future will entail. I mean, Mary and I just bought a new house, so that's, that's a fun transition. Yeah. And so at first it's like, oh my God, um, we're buying it helps your likes.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it's just scary. Cried in our first house. Yeah. Because we had a mortgage, I think of$200, two or$300 and he was like, oh, I'm never going to be free. Well it says that the idea of a mortgage, the mortgage payments, it's like, oh my God. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a lot of money. Yeah. But, uh,
Speaker 3:you know, Mary and I are also considering, you know, possibly having a baby in the future so that the other thing in our heads is like, oh my God. Like that's also kind of scary, you know, I mean obviously, I mean I have nieces and nephews and so I've interacted with, um, you know, babies, but having your own is very, very different and there is a lot of stuff that, you know, um, we'll have to learn and
Speaker 2:you have to adapt everything else. So it's the same thing. So you think you can do it? I awesome. Anything else I should have asked you that? Oh, a Oh no. I don't know. I don't know. For the second hour. No, I have no, wait, it didn't, it? I mean, does that, yeah, sure. We covered it well. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Then we're gonna wrap this up. Uh, thanks so much for sharing having this, sir. Um, this wraps up today's visit with Kevin prisoner, who's managed to make some big geographic and cultural transitions and somehow integrate that with his training and career. And he is a writer and he is a teacher. Yeah. Great. Yeah. You know, my, one of my first, uh, desires and now I'm doing it again. Yeah. Okay. Thanks Kevin. Thank you. Taking,
Speaker 5:yes, you've
Speaker 2:been listening to passing through life. I show that explores how people get through major life changes. If you've enjoyed this
Speaker 1:podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple podcast that will help new listeners know more what to expect. And you can email me at[inaudible] through life podcast@gmail.com. Feel free to comment about this show or suggest people and topics for future episodes. I'm Luanne Bull Becker. Thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 5:[inaudible].