#10--The Battles We Didn't Choose

If you've only been married five months and your wife is the one who gets diagnosed with breast cancer?  Well, clearly your honeymoon is REALLY over.

Even though cancer hits way too many of us, we are still shocked when it attacks someone particularly young and vibrant.  Such was the case with Jennifer Merendino.  Her husband Angelo is our guest this episode, recounting how he and his wife Jen dealt with  her double mastectomy, chemotherapy, radiation, and breast reconstruction before their first wedding anniversary.  And then how they eventually dealt with the cancer returning, trying to explain long distance to family and friends the journey they were going through.  A heart-wrenching, brutally honest series of photographs emerged from this experience.

Angelo Merendino also discusses how photography became his passion and livelihood, as well as the challenges of life as a young widower.

https://www.mywifesfightwithbreastcancer.com/

Angelo started a non-profit to help current victims of breast cancer.  It is called The Love You Share.  The mission of The Love You Share is to provide financial assistance to breast cancer patients in need while they are receiving treatment.  Its goal is to make life easier, even if only for a short time, for someone who is fighting for life.

https://theloveyoushare.org/

You can view more of Angelo Merendino's photography here:

https://www.angelomerendino.com/


NOTE:  This show transcript is still raw.  Once final edits are made, it will be noted right here in the show notes.

This episode was recorded 10.23.18.  All portions are copyright 2018 Luanne Bole-Becker.


 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

This is passing through life I show that explores how people navigate major life changes. Just how do we make it through what life throws at us. I'm your host, Luanne pulled back. Today's episode is entitled the battles we didn't choose. It's a subtle revision to the title of a powerful body of photographic work by our guest today, Angelo Marin. Dino, this is episode number 10. And Angelo is a professional photographer whose work is as artistically compelling as it is, compassionate and so very human. We'll learn more about how I Angelo and his wife Jennifer battled breast cancer at a very young age. And now how I Angelo and his wife Liz face the battles of fully living after such a defining and traumatic series of events. So welcome Angelo. I always enjoy talking with you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, any billing is mutual banks. Um, Angela and I met by phone call first. Um, and we had an instant connection. Uh, Cleveland magazine was doing a story about me and my husband and our journey through Alzheimer's. So this was back in 2016. Angelo is the photographer they had assigned to our story. And your life story includes a terminal disease of a young spouse and accompanying her on a four year journey to the ups and downs and really inexplicably challenges of a disease like cancer. So we talked a long time that first phone call and several times after and I think we have a kinship of a common experience and a fraternity or a sorority there really no one ever wants to join, but we did. Neither one of us chose it. The theme of our podcast is always about transitions and I think you'd have a whole bunch and I think they're worth exploring what we'll see. Let's see what we can get through and was about an hour. Uh, first you became a photographer. I want to talk a little bit about that. Falling in love, dealing with the specter of cancer and death. Just what, five months after being married? Yes. Yes. Good. Jen and I were married for five months and um, we, Jen and I met in Cleveland. Okay. I was applying for a job as a bartender at the Fulton bar and grill, which is no longer there, but um, Jen was a manager there and I applied and met her and I immediately thought, wow, you know, she is just, she is something else. She is, I'm like no one I've ever met and I, I really had strong feelings for her. Jen saw me as a friend, whereas I was wanting to be more than friends and, and I never had it back then. I, I didn't have the confidence to say how I really felt

Speaker 2: 3:00

about her. I didn't think she would be interested in me. And so when we work together, I would get incredibly nervous. I had been bartending for years and I knew how to buy a 10, but I was just nervous around her because she was the kind of person who really led by example. She didn't judge people. She just worked hard and everyone that I knew then who knew Jen and everyone, I ultimately wouldn't meet, all said the same thing. Like you just wanted to be a better person because of the way Jen carried herself. So, so not long after we met Jen took a job in New York and move to the city and, um, and we kept in touch. We would talk on the phone. This was right as texting was starting to happen. Well that's good. Yeah, it was great. Well, we talked on the phone and we've, we just, even then that we would talk for hours and we'd listen to each other and I still didn't have the courage to tell her how I felt when I also thought, well, I'm in Cleveland and you're in New York. Like, how's that gonna work? And I would be in this city from time to time and I would see her and I just would always have these big ideas of what I was going to say. And then it never really happened. So I finally did. And we dated long distance for a few months. And then I moved to New York and I proposed the night that I arrived. And, um, and then we spent about a year in New York just living and planning a wedding. We were married in central park. She was wonderful. It was surrounded by her family and a few close friends. And so here we were and you know, in our thirties we had fallen in love and we had this wedding that was so wonderful. We felt like it was true to who we were, you know, getting married outside in a park and for two people who grew up in Akron to think, wow, we're getting married in central park. It was, it was very special to us and we were starting our life at that time. If you can put yourself back in that, what were you seeing? What did you think your life might hold for you? I didn't really know what my life might hold, but I didn't think there were any boundaries. I felt like, you know, the old saying, the world is our oyster. It was all right, you know, now I, you know, at that point I, I was probably not the most confident. I didn't believe in myself, but Jen really encouraged me. And she pointed out the things in me that she said, you know, this is why you should believe in yourself aside from a wonderful wife. She was a great person, a great friend. And so I didn't know what was coming next. I had been playing music my entire life and that kind of fell apart and I didn't know what was next. I had what kind of music? Oh, I played the drums in a bunch of rock and roll bands. Um, but I, I just kind gotten into photography a little before that. I just didn't have any clear direction, but I have this, this best friend as a wife and now going to be together and it's gonna be okay. Right. In hindsight, it's almost naive in a sense, you know, because I, I didn't, I didn't have the experience that Jen and I would soon have to sort of make me think differently about mortality and about being alive and about being present and how time passes. So to life was just a blank canvas at that point. And, and then five months later, Jen was diagnosed with breast cancer. And, um, now in 2018, it's been 10 years since that diagnosis and it still is, is really strange to think that that happened in a decade has passed and so much has happened so that, you know, in an instant life just, it just went beyond intense. It was, everything got turned upside down. I remember Jen called me because the doctor just called her to say, you know, we were, you know, it's breast cancer and it was like an immediate switch flip to being numb. And while that numbness doesn't envelop my entire existence as much as it did, it's still kind of, their life just became much more precious, much more fragile and our life in a while. Other people we knew who our age, we're young couples were maybe starting a family or they were buying a home where they were traveling or their career was their focus and are working hard on that. We were facing breast cancer, this unknown that was changing. So often even, you know, from one doctor visit to the next a couple of days apart, things would change and sometimes we would just get a handle on what was happening in our life, whether it was medications and side effects and cancer would do a 90 degree turn and all that stuff we'd drop. And so our life was really about being present and being in the moment because we couldn't make long term plans. How is your marriage handling this? I mean you're, you're pretty. So it, how long had you been dating? We dated for a little over a year, so we had been together less than two years when Jen was diagnosed as a couple. And I think dating long distance really taught us the importance in that short amount of time of listening to each other. And so I think we always had a good ability to communicate. It was just clear to both of us that okay, this is our life and we're in this together. We, we made these valves and didn't expect them to be challenged. There's cards for better, for worse in sickness and in health till we get any of the health? It was ultimately a great honor to care for someone who needed that. And for me it was very defining in the sense that it made me realize I'm a little more about who I am as a person and what's important to me and, and I can't, um, I can't act like I did all this. Jennifer was very graceful. She never complained, you know, I can't imagine going through what she went through and not that she wasn't angry or depressed or sad that you didn't just walk through this happy as can be, but she, she was very graceful. And I think that again, she set an example through her actions. So, you know, it's still strange again, uh, 10 years since the diagnosis and it's just really, it's very strange. It doesn't happen to me. It happens to someone else. It's that thing, like someone else told this story so many times in so many ways. I'm imagining it feels like a story, which is, I can feel that a little bit with what happens with me. And Bob that, yeah, it almost, it doesn't feel like me anymore. You know, we've done that. We did that. Yeah. And it's just, well, I think the fact that Jen and I shared our experience and after she passed, I continued to share it. I, I tried to figure out, okay, how can I get these messages across to people? And to your point, at times it does feel like I'm just retelling a story. I've had to really be careful to not get lost in it and to remember who I am and to not become a victim or the people around you. You're handling it at this. Do you have people around you because you're in New York, right? Yeah. Well, some, some people in our family, aunts, uncles, the older generations have experienced things. But for us, Jen was in her thirties so I don't think anyone really believed what was happening. Okay. I think there was a state of shock and when Jen was first diagnosed, there was a double mastectomy. There was chemotherapy, radiation, and, and reconstruction before our first anniversary. Oh my God. So, and as you rattle this off, you were at the, each one of these I'm thinking when it hits you. Yeah, it's a major thing, but it's like, oh yeah, double mastectomy. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, our family and friends during that first year were incredible. You know, I, I can't imagine that time without them. There were people who, you know, came in from Ohio to just spend time with us because I was still, I was still working and Jen fortunately was able to take, um, a leave from work or paid media at this time I was working at, um, it was a design and fabrication studio and Chelsea, they did a lot of window displays for companies and showrooms and I was kind of just a really an office grunt. But they gave me a title of a office manager. I think they liked me. We got along well and I had a good work ethic, so, and they were, they were incredible as far as, you know, there were days where I would just say, Hey, I'm not going to be in this week. And they just said there was never a question. I really learned not to jump too far, but I learned a lot about kindness and that, you know, there are people who helped us who were their religious beliefs were this way or they didn't have religious beliefs. They were, uh, there were men, there were women, there were different ethnicities, different sexual preference. But at the end of the day, that didn't matter. People just helped us. And to me, not that I didn't think that beforehand, but it was a real life experience of thinking someone wasn't like a baptist and you grew up Catholics, I'm not helping you. It wasn't, you know, I'm from this part of the world. You're from that part of the world. You're straight or gay. It wasn't anything like that. It was, this is really messed up. How can we help? Well, it was great, you know, and it, I can't imagine getting through that time without that support. And, um, we also had a great social worker at the hospital we were at. And our oncologist was really wonderful. They both seem to know when to let us cry. You know, to give us a tissue and when to give us tough love and say, okay, you know, you know, hey, it's time to make the[inaudible]. I've got a note about the social worker that um, it was a she fiber crops. Yeah. Well yeah. And that, you know, you guys were fighting and then at some point she allows you not to fight. Is that a true, that's what I kind of remember you Roz could with a few words, just make things as okay as they could be. You know, she was, um, incredibly wise and kind and hilarious. You know, she, she always had our back and that was huge because again, we're navigating a world that we didn't have any experience in. Like we have to make a decision on which chemotherapy or you know, what type of reconstructive surgery, all these things that people spend years studying to understand. And then the doctor comes in the room and tells us some stuff and we're supposed to make a decision. But what ended up happening is that, you know, Jen finished her treatment and then it was like, okay, go back to life. And we're like, you know, I kind of felt like everything I had learned had just been wiped out. Everything I had learned in life and experience and thought I was looking at it through the eyes of your mortality was very different and things I thought were important or just kind of like, oh, you know, I don't know that's important anymore. Or material things, material, financial, quote unquote success, the things that I think our culture says to be important. And um, to me, you know, family and friends and things that really became everything. And the, I would just tell people I love them constantly and I still do. I think that's really important. So you get through, it sounds like a first stage of treatment and everything. Okay. Now you're supposed to go back to life over how long is that period roughly? Is that like the period of treatment? Uh, it was just under a year. Okay. All right. And we finished with that right before our first anniversary. And um, then when people didn't understand why we were still very rattled and why we were just, we were exhausted and we were confused. And we were scared and we just, we couldn't, it was hard to explain to people, you know, there was a lot of, oh well the cancer's gone. Like they're all saying, okay, you gotta be okay now, but they don't understand, you know, that well now it's a huge fear that the cancer is going to come back. And not that we constantly thought that we were, we try, you know, I think we were both naturally optimistic people when we let ourselves be that way. But the reality is it's, you can, you can be the most half full glass in the world, but when you're dealing with something like cancer, it's, it's not that we became pessimistic or anger or any of those things, but, you know, again, with hindsight, I understand more now why I think people behave the way they did. And I'm not angry at people who weren't around or who kind of fell off the face of the earth. I think people, some people could deal with it and some people couldn't. And you know, when I was, um, I was 19, my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer and I didn't behave in a way that I'm proud of now because I was young and I didn't know. So I've just tried to understand how or why people behave the way they did because we had a lot of, um, you know, just be happy, just do this, just do that. And it's like, cool, how are you to tell us how we should be when we just went through this hell, it's like an armchair quarterback, you know? But we still, we tried to understand where people were coming from it and we did try to put our lives back together and we were aware of life and how precious it is and as much as we could be while still being kind of in shock. But, but then in April of 2010, um, so it was about a year and a half or more than a year and a half, um, where Jen was going back for checkups and, um, but in April, 2000 back at work. Back at work. Yeah. But definitely thinking that, you know, what does she want to do with their life? All of a sudden, you know, she just didn't want to go make a paycheck. She, because she noticed when, when she was trying to find other people say online to, to connect with, it was different in 2008 and nine. Now there are blogs, everything and there is a bigger voice for a lot of different things. But at that point it wasn't, it wasn't like that. And most of what she was finding online, it was very clinical. Like, here's the drug, here are the side effects. And she's like, yeah, but I'm having these other side effects. And so she, she joined a support group, um, during that first year of treatment and there, I think maybe 14 or 15 women in rise. The social worker I mentioned led the group and these women, you know, they could, they could talk about things that they understood. They could be comfortable in a way that they couldn't be anywhere else. You know, Jen and I were best friends. I was her husband and she knew that there wasn't anything I wouldn't do for her, but there was a certain point that I didn't, I couldn't cross that line and understand what she was saying, but these other women could. And I had to realize I wanted to be superman. I wanted to have every answer. I want it to always, you know, be the one to take care of her. But I realized I needed to know when to let other people help her. And that was difficult for me because it was hard to let go and let someone else help her. But, um, so we're, we, we shared our experience because I should say gen more so at first because she felt like there has, there has to be other people out there who feel like I do. You know, so her cancer metastasized in, in April of 2010 and we were back in that world. But one of the many things that were different was that our family and friends kind of, not all of them, but a lot of them were just go, well you know, just, you just gotta pray, you just gotta be positive. And we're like, no, the cancer has metastasized. Like that's the worst fear of someone who finishes treatment is that it's going to come back. And it wasn't about being positive or not being positive. It wasn't about praying or not praying. It was like, and so we just noticed that people weren't communicating as much. People were in responding as much and we had hospital stays have 10 1215 days and there are times where something, you know, we, people knew we were there and we would barely have visitors or there wouldn't be cards coming in. And I remember thinking like, come on, you know, like really send a card, send a text message saying I love you. Sometimes it could be that simple. And so that's when I started to photograph what we were going through because I wanted to share with our family to say, this is really getting messed up. And I, as things progressed, does the cancer continue to spread? They were trying to find a chemo that would work, but it was an aggressive cancer. And

Speaker 3: 20:35

yeah,

Speaker 2: 20:35

I remember getting to the point where it was like, okay, this is, this is looking more on the bad side and nasal the good side and trying to tell people, close friends, family members, like he got a good here. You know, I remember telling an old friend, you know that this was in October of 2011 saying that there's a good chance I was going to be widowed before Christmas. And he said, Oh, you can't think that way. And I, I just, I said, listen man, I don't want to think this way, but you know, the cancer had spread to her brain at that point, you know? Right. So it was, it was very difficult at the time because it's, it's painful enough. It's scary enough. It's a confusing enough time as it is. And you know, to Jen passed when she was 40 and that's, you know, we were both very young to experience something like that. And I don't fault people. I've made my peace with a lot of people and even inside myself to let go of a lot of these things because of Ed became unhealthy. But I just, I think that we don't, as a society here in the states, I don't think we talk about things like this enough and it's happening to people all

Speaker 1: 21:48

around here. It's, everyone goes through this in some manner. I mean, years, his younger years is unexpected, but it's one of the same things. A couple of years ago I started just researching mortality and different cultures and just why do we just push it aside? It is the one common thing. We are all going to deal with it. It's really important. Yeah. And, and yeah, and we, we have a funeral and we say, come back to work in 10 days, you know? Well, and Dah, Dah, Dah. You know, I, I've,

Speaker 2: 22:21

I found that it, it's, I think about mortality in one minute and scares the life out of me, no pun intended. But, um, and then other moments it's very,

Speaker 4: 22:34

mmm,

Speaker 2: 22:36

it's a very inspiring thought that, okay, well then, you know, what am I doing right now? How am I living my life right now? And, but I think in bracing that thought and accepting it has been a very important part of my, um, moving on. I'm moving on, but healing and, you know, I'm not living my life as a widower. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:04

I want to go back a bit, um, because I know about your photographs and you've alluded to them, it, tell me a little bit more about what you actually did and what has happened with these photographs. I mean, you've given, I don't remember a few years or Ted talks or Tedx talks that you've given talks and I mean, these photographs now beyond your family, getting a sense of what you were really going through. Tell me what do we see and what have they done?

Speaker 2: 23:31

Well, so when I started making photographs, I was a little older. I think I was 27 or 28 and I went to school for it. And I, you know, I was very serious because I found this thing that was really interesting and everything looked cooler through a view finder of a camera then without it. And I wanted to learn and I wanted to, I wanted to be a photographer and I was more interested in photograph that told stories, photographs that you know, were 50 or 60 years old and still important a hundred years old or current photos too. But that they had that thing about them that made me think, I first started looking at a lot of war photographers and photo journalists and people who were dedicated to their photographs in a way that it wasn't just like, um, it wasn't just a job. I mean it was, but there was a passion, there was a, it seemed like there was a desire to, to share something and rather make a photograph that might not be perfectly layered or composed or in focus enough, but someone looks at it and it, it affects them as opposed to something that is so perfect that you don't understand it or no one can connect to it. All right. Okay. You know, that's, that's less important to me then communication and feeling. And so I was always, you know, I would drive my instructors crazy because I didn't want to do still lifes. I didn't want to do, do these things. I would say, why, why does the point of this, you know? And they would always just tell me, you know, learn how to make photographs, man, like just be patient. And then not that I'm glad that this happened, but life life happened. And then I was in a situation where I was parenting me that this was the time to use my camera to express the feelings I was having that I didn't understand as well as to communicate something and to do something with a camera that that had meaning that I believed in. And so taking care of Jennifer, especially after her cancer metastasized was always the first thing. And she knew this and trusted that. And when I asked her if I could, in addition to that photograph our life, she was on board. And so, you know, I asked, I have always carried a camera with me since I started making photographs. And I knew the exposure and the different rooms in our home or our apartment. Um, and we went outside once, I was sure that Jen was okay at my camera was set. When we went into a different building, I was always thinking about my camera being set because things happen like that.

Speaker 5: 26:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:16

And so I wasn't really thinking, oh, I'm going to make this body of work that's going to do this and that and I need this photo. I need this kind of photo and here's the different types of photos that are whatever we're going to tell a story. It was more like that felt a certain way, click, you know, I was just, I wasn't thinking about making photographs. And I think in a lot of ways of doing that was my way of dealing with, you know, keeping it enough, a wall between me and Jen's cancer so that I wouldn't be crushed and I could keep taking care of her. And, um, I'll keep doing my part, not like she couldn't take care of herself, but later on it was more on me than on her. But you know, and I feel like Jen gave me these photographs as much as I made them. It was like a conversation, you know, there was, there was trust there, which is very important to me now as a professional photographer. The importance of that trust that someone doesn't feel like I'm just coming in there with my camera to use them. That's not, did she ever say don't do that? Were there any incidences? I generally knew I could sense, but there was one time, um, so Jen's cancer had continued to spread and we were going to see a radiologist to, to see if they could do this really focused radiation.

Speaker 3: 27:36

Okay.

Speaker 2: 27:37

And we were in the, the, the room waiting for, uh, the, the radiologist to come in. And it was one of the few times that I really saw Jen showing her anxiety and[inaudible] and I made a few photographs and I remember she looked at me, she was like, you know, she's kind of given me a look, like, hurry up and finish and then just, you know, just be, yeah. So, so then the photographs will ultimately happened was that, you know, I, a friend suggested that we share them because he had said, you know, man, these are the story that hasn't really been shared and I think you could affect a lot of people. So we decided to do that and yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:23

And you know, a lot of people started sharing them. Facebook was a big vehicle for that. And, and then Jen passed and not long after she passed, um, CNN shared them on their photo blog. And that was the first time that they really had a big audience. And then there was a period where all of a sudden my, my inbox just started exploding. And the furthest I trace it back was that someone shared a link on reddit and then it went everywhere. And there were weeks of waking up in the morning getting emails like, Hey, do you want to be on, um, huff post live today at noon? And I'm like, Oh, it's 1115 and my internet connection isn't great. Yes. Yeah. So, um, it's a spread and it was really incredible because it was, uh, for me, it was my way of getting through these days of still being in this incredibly confusing and foggy place of being widowed and not understanding how Jen could possibly not be alive. And, um, and so I saw our story helping people and I got emails from who said, you know, I, I have breast cancer and I have been able to share these photographs in my family and they're starting to understand and emails from people who said, you know, I was ready to just quit treatment but I'm not going to because of what you two did. And it wasn't that I was thinking, oh, awesome. Yeah, like an eagle way. It was more that big picture of, okay, is passing is turning into something positive. Yes. It's helping people,

Speaker 1: 30:10

Paul, right. I mean, I'm thinking, I did get chills. I'm not just saying this. Um, it starts out with all these people helping you in a microcosm, kind of that they come around you to help and that that's what is the key thing. Elissa says, you look back and that got you through it and now you're becoming this person thing, the two of you and what you've created now is helping others. I mean, it's like, it's just, I guess snowballing, whatever. And that, that's the theme and that's what makes a difference.

Speaker 2: 30:44

Well, it was, it was humbling indeed to see that happen and to think, wow, you know, we, we were able to take something really horrible and make something positive out of it, you know? And it was important to us throughout our experience too, to try to give back in any way that we could. And I had asked Jen before you few days before she passed, if it was okay for me to start a nonprofit in her honor. And so I have a nonprofit now called the love you share where, you know, each month I provide a little financial assistance to patients who are receiving treatment. And it's not like I'm paying someone's mortgage every month, but it's something, and those were the things for us, those little things that people could do it, it wasn't just a monetary thing, it was that someone was the kindness, you know, there, there were some days that were horrible beyond belief and then a message would come through, or a card or someone would say, Hey, I know you had treatment today and I just ordered dinner for you. And so it was just those little things. We didn't expect the answers from people, but, but you know, so that's, that's where this nonprofit kind of came from was how can we, how can I make a small difference in people's life? And through the photographs I was able to raise a lot of money for the nonprofit. And you know, for me it's, it's something that I, I never imagined I would do something like that. And Yeah, I thought about the other day that, that, you know, one more what could be more of an honor then being there when someone passes and, and being the one who's holding her hand, you know, who's kind of helping that person as a, a bridge across to wherever or whatever. If, if anything exists, I don't, I don't know. But you know, for me it was, it's been the greatest honor of, uh, of my life, you know, to have been there for her. And um, I, I think in, in return she really gave me a life, I guess from that point on, your life kind of began again from me and you're now life is very different from what it was before. And I look back without regret on, on decisions I've made and how I handled myself in that time. And I think now when challenges come up, if I can remember to think like, okay,

Speaker 1: 33:09

okay, is this, is this breast cancer? No, I, I can get through this, you know, cats at the flow chart. Very simple. I said, okay. Yeah. Again, we're sitting here with a lot of hindsight and things sound like, okay, we got through this as positive, but you told me that you couldn't make decisions. I mean you're just kinda like, if that happened, what else? Tell me a little bit, cause I think people listening to this also need the reality of if a spouse dies, especially unexpected young. I mean what, what, what happened to you?

Speaker 2: 33:45

Um, well I was still living in New York and I remember I was going to meet somebody or what it was by us walking to the subway. I stand on the platform and I just started thinking, oh no, here it comes. And I ran home because I knew I was about to, you know, I felt like I was about to have a breakdown and I got home and the pain was there, the heaviness was there, but I couldn't cry. And it, it took a long time to cry. It took years for me to really cry and I still have a hard time crying, you know? I think during that experience with Jen, I really had to try to keep my emotions in check because I felt like if I let go right now, it's going to steamroll me and I'm not going to get back up. And I think that I still am kind of walking that back, I guess. But, but there were a lot of moments where it would just hit me and I would just sit and stare. And it was very numb and very, uh, confused and nothing seemed to make sense at times. And I thought everyone knew. And I'd walk into a restaurant and I would just start to panic and I would leave because I thought that if someone looked at me, they looked at me like, oh, there's that guy who's wife died. And it's crazy to say that now it's like, how could they have known? But at that time I felt like, uh, like then you're just wearing it. Oh yeah. You know? And, and that pain made it difficult for me to interact with people. Um, I didn't become reclusive, but I kind of spent a little over a year, you know, very much on my own. Um, and it was the same with that. Like people didn't know what to do or what to say or they want to, Jennifer's cousins did the, one of the best things, he, um, he was traveling to New York on his way to Vermont. Name is Bob and his little older than I am. And um,

Speaker 3: 35:45

okay,

Speaker 2: 35:46

Bob left me a voice mail and say, Hey, I'm traveling to New York. This is a couple of months every Jen had passed. And he said, you know, I'd, I'd love to see, uh, um, even if, if you just want to sit and stare at a wall, I'd be happy to sit and stare at a wall with you. And that was the most perfect. And here this, there were so many people who know me better than Bob, but that was the most perfect thing that anybody had said. And so many people either didn't want to talk about it. You could tell they're uncomfortable. And so they would completely died. Yet majority Molly led me to react when people would say, how are you? How are you doing? I'd look at them and think, okay, I'm giving them the, uh, you know, data time doing okay. Answer. Because I knew if I said, well right now, actually I'm, I'm horrible. Um, you know, I'm in more pain on a regular if I really unloaded on them and told them how I felt. Some people, you could tell it was like three, two, glossed over. You could just, so, so there were only a few people that I felt like I could really speak to Roz being one of them. Um, and I was fortunate to meet a few other, um, younger men and women who had lost a spouse and I could say something and they wouldn't look at me like I was crazy and I felt like no one understood. And I had a few people who said, you know, Time's a great healer and I would think you're crazy. You know, people that I met who had, there may be however many years longer out than I was of being widowed. And they would say, Time's a great healer. Like, it's, you're never going to not feel this, but it won't hit you as hard years from now. There are sometimes where it will, but it's not gonna like at that time, it just felt like, uh, the weight of the world, like a jacket that was a lead jacket, you know, and I didn't want to hear that because I, you know, I'm never going to marry again. I'm never going to fall in love. Like I, I, I just couldn't imagine ever being with anyone else. And, um, and, and it was true, you know, years out. I, you know, I, I have, uh, uh, a friend that I've, he saw some work that I had done and he reached out and his wife passed few years ago and we've been talking and I've been able to say some of these things to him. You know, he, he went on a date the other day and I was so excited for him and, and I've been able to say that to him like, hey man, you know, Time's a great healer and I know how that sounds.

Speaker 3: 38:13

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:14

So, but, but right after it was, you know, it was, um, there was strange. It just, it didn't feel real. It felt like any man I was going to wake up in general was going to be there or, um, but it was also difficult too, because I had this very extreme feeling of, well, you know, oh, you're having a rough day at work, my died, you know? Right. Yeah. And yeah, and sometimes that was necessary. I was in a bank once and there was only one teller. Yeah. And I had a, a deposit from my personal account, one for my business account and one for the nonprofit. And, um, so she was the lady who was doing her, she was checking in and someone behind me aligned it, formed in this lady said, oh my God, this line, I'd rather be dead. And this was months after Jen died. I turned around and I said, my wife just died a few months ago, is this line really that big a deal? And I turned around and went back to the teller and as I was walking out, the lady came up and said, I'm sorry, that was the wrong thing to say. And now in some cases I, I'm glad that I spoke up to some people, you know? And I've had those moments in my life where I've behaved in that other way and I still have moments now where I stop and think I can come on, man. Like I remember the big picture, but it also got to the point where I was like, anybody who complained about anything like I had to beat. Right. And you know, yeah, oh you got, you got two jacks, I have 12 aces, you know. So it was Kinda like I had to learn to also not become a victim and to, to start to heal, you know, and to live life. And remember thinking, you know, Jen told me before a few months before she died, she started to say, Hey, you know, I want you to, after I pass, I want you to fall in love again. I don't want to be alone. And I started to interrupt her and she kind of said, man, you, you have to let me say this. And I realized that I, I didn't want to hear that, but I needed to let her tell me. And I can't imagine the courage it would take to say to your spouse, hey, I'm going to die, but I want you to find someone else after that. And Jen, Jen was widowed at a young age. And, and I, I started to think around that time after she passed it around at a time when I decided to date again. I thought, well, you know, if Jen hadn't started dating again, we wouldn't have met, you know, and it's scary, but, you know, then here I am now. I, um, I fell in love again and I, uh, yeah, I met a wonderful woman. Liz is her name, and she's my best friend. She um, loves me in a way that I have never been loved. And, um, and it makes me a better person by the way. She lives her life. And, and it's interesting too because I, you know, love is very different for me now. Love means something very different than, than what it has in my life. And I think it's always going to change. But I love lays in a way that knows that one of us is going to die first. And it's, it's a very intense love. And you know, Liz has had some very traumatic experiences in her life and on our first date, um, she knew that I was widowed. She didn't know that I had photographed. Jennifer. Actually I had an old, like a film camera and she told me later on that she kinda saw the camera is like, what is this Weirdo thank and like, you know, why does he have a kid? No, I was a photographer and so she was kind of a little creeped out by the camera. But um, but we were talking and Liz, um, is divorced and she mentioned that she said, you know, it's not like I'm not ever going to not love my ex husband. We share a life together. Yeah. And when she said that, I thought there was the perfect thing because I knew that it would take work, but that she understands that, you know, I'm always gonna love Jennifer. That's a part of my life that is a very defining part of my life. And it's, and it's been a, it was a seed that has grown into so much of who I am, but I don't want Jennifer back. I'm in love with Liz and that, that that's my future. But when she said that on our first date,

Speaker 4: 42:34

yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:35

Eh, that took out many walls. Just her saying that because I thought, oh, I think she's going to be able to undertake.

Speaker 1: 42:40

Right, right. Because she has a different version. But similar

Speaker 2: 42:46

reaction. I felt like she saw the bigger picture, right. That she understands that there's a lifetime, there's experiences and again, we, we work on, it's, you know, we had been married a little over a year now and we still have to, to work to understand each other and to be patient with each other and they see where the other person's coming from and we don't always get it right, but there's a deeper connection there then,

Speaker 1: 43:17

and then I would have ever known possible. I want to go back to something you'd tell me when we met prior to this interview. Uh, it, you know, how love is different that you said with Jen. At first it was the love. Like, I can't imagine not living, you know, I can't imagine my life without her, that it's that kind of love and that now, yeah, it's this different, one of it's til death do us part and there will be a time probably without them that and that doesn't make it a, a smaller love. It, it feels like a bigger, deeper love. Yeah. With Jen, it was that feeling

Speaker 4: 43:59

of,

Speaker 2: 44:00

you know, I, I don't want to live without her. And that was a great feeling, but then she died and I kept waking up and I continue to wake up. And, and that, that experience, there have been many lessons

Speaker 4: 44:15

that I've, you know,

Speaker 2: 44:18

learned since Jen, since meeting Jen since she was diagnosed and she passed. But

Speaker 4: 44:24

okay.

Speaker 2: 44:24

That reality that, yes, I, I love Liz with all of my heart, but if I die, I want her to continue living life and, and to be happy. And if she passes, I obviously mourn her loss and I don't, you know, it's kind of strange, like a hard time even saying this, I can see it's like, oh, you're going to say, well, you know, earth, it's one side of me is like, I don't want to experience that death again. So I would want to go first. But then I think, oh, I don't want that because I don't want her to go. Right, right, right. But, but really it's this deeper love that it's like, okay, you know what not that means more than the way I love Jan, or they're someone else's love. It's not that, it's just a deeper thing knowing like, okay, I love you. I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you and I know that these things could happen and I still love you and still want to spend the rest of my life with you. Knowing that I could get a phone call from you that would turn things upside down again. And so it's, it's a very different love. I think, you know, lays has often mentioned that, you know, there that when you love someone, a wedding ring is, is what it is and all that. But waking up in the morning and saying, okay, I love you. I'm gonna stay with you. Like that's the commitment. Waking up in the morning and like actually loving someone. You can have a wedding ring or not, you can have a ceremony, whatever you want, but actually loving someone that it's, it's more than just saying we're married or getting married or, or whatever it is. Like the actual act of loving someone that's, you know, it takes work. It, it's humbling. It, you have to be vulnerable and you have to be strong. And you have to be willing to have the other person say things that are going to hurt, but, but to trust that the person is saying that because they love you. Right. Right now they're not trying to hurt you. It's just this is what they're feeling and dealing with. Yeah. And so are you there with me even? You know, there are times when, when both of us will say like, I know this sounds crazy and I'm probably just being my emotional self, but this is what I'm feeling right now. And all it takes is for laser for me to say like, okay, I get that. Like, feel that I get it, but, but this is like, but it's okay, like reassuring each other and so it's just a different, you know, it's a different from you at a different appreciation of what it means to commit to someone. You also talk to me about, you thought you were at peace with death, but that that has changed to any type of, a little bit about, um, I mean your parents also died. Yeah. You know, a few years and after Jen, but I like your dad's outlook. Do you want to talk about that a little bit or, yeah, well my parents were, my mom was born in 1927 and my dad in 1928 and um, I'm the youngest of 11 kids, so my parents were of a very different generation than, than me. Um, and I've often felt more comfortable people who are older than me. I think sometimes the sense of humor, people my age look at me like Corny, but people in their seventies, people in their seventies think I'm Robin Williams. Um, but yeah, so my parents, um, yeah, they're raised 11 kids. They, they gave us a life that was incredible. And when I was younger, I don't think I understood or I appreciated that as much as I do now. Um, and my dad, um, my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer a few years after he retired. And I remember thinking,

Speaker 6: 48:19

yeah,

Speaker 2: 48:19

this is, pardon my French, this is bullshit. You know, like he worked all these years was the, you know, he, I think he, he didn't miss a day of work, if I remember it correctly. It was never laid. He like, yeah,

Speaker 6: 48:34

he,

Speaker 2: 48:35

he had a good job and he knew that, you know, kept as a roof over his family in provided while my mom had an equally important job of, of taking care of the kids. And

Speaker 6: 48:49

he,

Speaker 2: 48:51

he appreciated that job and he worked hard. You know, he was, he was, he's a good man, no good human being. And he, he worked hard. He was very honorable and, and I didn't understand how is this possible. He just retired. My Mom and dad, or, you know, they went to, they would go to myrtle beach for a month and they were doing things that they weren't able to do when they were raising all these kids. And they had a saying that the secret to their marriage was that their, their agreement was that whoever left first had to take all the kids he's married. Okay. So, but they, you know, they, they, they were just starting to experience some things as retirees. And then my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. And what I saw was him nearly dying and this hellish treatment in at 19 or 20, that I was around that age, it was like, well, I'm not thinking about the future. I'm not saving money. I'm living in the moment, you know, forget religion, forget all that stuff. You know, it's all, it's all a crock. And, uh, so I kind of went extreme and I think some people at that age do that anyways. But I was fueled by, I think, again in hindsight that the pain of watching my dad's suffer and he was just larger than life figure. And then there he was with a feeding tube and you know, in the hospital and all these things. And thankfully, um, through some very radical treatment, they were able to get ahead of his cancer. And he lived another 20 years. And you know, I kinda came back around towards the center of being a little more moderate with my own lifestyle. And, and that's when I met Jan. And then she got diagnosed and I kinda went back out that way. But, um, but I remember asking my dad a few months before he passed, I said, yeah, Dad, where are you? Are You mad about that? That you retired? All this happens? And he was like,[inaudible] you kidding me? You know, and another 20 years and you know, grandkids and great grandkids, the experiences that he had and he's seen every day above ground is a good day. And Yeah, there are people in the world who are suffering and that's not a true statement for everybody. But for me, it really hit me to think I care if someone, he was 85 when he told me this was a few months before he passed, I was like, I need to find the lesson to this. Yeah, this is very true. What he's saying right now. And then, and my dad passed and, and uh, may of 2014. So, you know, I, in losing a parent is tough and especially because my, my, I had moved back from New York. Okay. A little, um, about a year. A little more than a year before that. And I had kind of, I really was reconnecting with my parents. I, I left New York for many reasons, but the most important was that my parents were in the 80s and Jen had died. And I thought, holy crap, why am I not there with them?

Speaker 3: 51:57

Okay.

Speaker 2: 51:58

So I'm glad that I came back and had that time with him, you know, and then a few months after that, my mom passed. My Dad was May 30th, my mom was December 29th of 2014 which is not surprising that they, um, are close in passing, you know, but it, you know, it was all the sudden it was like, okay, wait a minute. You know, there no, my parents are gone. Right. And the thoughts that came from that, um, I think that with Jen and her passing and my parents passing, I thought I had this idea about mortality and now I'm, I just turned 45 yesterday. But now I think about it and, uh, thank you. I think about my own mortality and all the sudden it's like, oh, that's, it's one thing to think about, but yeah, everyone else is going to die. But it's like, oh shit. Um, I'm in that everybody else. And so, you know, I think I'm experiencing these losses at this age is no, it's definitely changed how I am living my life. And I think I mentioned earlier, there are times where I'm, I'm, I have that thought like, Oh man, I'm on a diet. It's socks. Like I really like being alive, you know? Yeah. But then there are moments where that thought is just inspiring and it makes me want to live my life the way that I want

Speaker 5: 53:26

to live it. It makes me want to, okay.

Speaker 2: 53:29

Follow the feelings that I have in my dreams and trust my gut and not be so concerned about what other people think or keeping up with what other people have or buying things to buy things and living more of a quality in my eyes. I quality life and feeling like I'm doing the things in my heart is telling me to do. And, and I'm doing my doing my best to do them well. And you know, with, with my marriage, with my family, with my friends, with my work, the thing at the end of the day, like,

Speaker 5: 54:02

yeah,

Speaker 2: 54:04

I did my best, you know, I, I think that's, that's more important to me then recognition or financial success. Yeah. I want to be able to do things and the cost money and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, like, you know, I want to, I want to go to sleep thinking yeah, this was a great day. I was present.

Speaker 1: 54:30

I think you telling me a story that Liz met an older couple, I can't remember what the difficulties for, but it was something about something about even with all this junk, when you know all these things are happening because I related to it with the idea there's always all cybers in her life. But he said something like,

Speaker 2: 54:52

but

Speaker 1: 54:53

is there something wrong in this current moment? Can you talk about that? Cause I, cause I think that's important. Again, you know, we're kind of talking this big picture stuff and I'm like, okay, his wife died that you feel that. But I thought this was a real practical way of just catching yourself. Yeah. Liz was

Speaker 2: 55:10

Liz, um, I'd be friend of this older couple and she was talking with the gentleman the one day and they were talking about, um, she was talking about something that was bothering her and, and I, if I remember the story correctly, he had said, yeah, but you know what's wrong right now. And she kind of told the story again. He's like, yeah, but what's wrong right now? And every time she would start to say something, it was like, no, no, no. Like, like, what's wrong right now? I remember the first time Liz told me that, and it was like, that is so profound that I'm going to argue against it again. It's so clear that you're right. But you know, it's almost one of those things, it's so simple that when you realize it, you realize how simple it is. But it's not easy to get to that point. It's not a simple thing to recognize her practice. And there are the Times where I'm winding myself up and I've spent too much time worrying about something. I think about Liz saying what's wrong right now? And it's like nothing, you know, like my belly is full, I'm healthy, I can see and hear and walk. I woke up today, you know, like, so it was, I think that's, that's one of the things about Liz that, that I really cherish the most is, you know, she has had those experiences and, and we both have our faults and we're both stubborn as can be and we have the dumbest arguments that at a certain point it's like, I don't even know where this started or what we started arguing. It's kind of comical. We said we were going to put video cameras around the House that we are, you, we can look back the next day and laugh at herself. But, um, but she's, you know, we, we are learning how to let the other person not be perfect and practicing acceptance and also listening when the other person says, you know, like again, just take a step back for a minute and not getting defensive because I want to be angry and stopping and thinking, okay, I trust Liz, not just as my wife, but as a person. She's got a good, her judgment is really good and really strong and so I'm going to listen to her. You know, I remember over the years after Jen pass, thinking of how I, I knew more about love than other people because I, I carry Jen's casket and I remember kind of the humbling moment of realizing I don't know more than someone else. I just, I have my experience and I think with Liz, we've really tried to appreciate that in each other, you know, that these experiences have made us who we are. And that's why we fell in love and why we said, you know, yeah, that's, that's runoff from the mountains, get married. And I am thankful to have someone in my life who can every now and then just sort of when I'm going off on that, that wrong angle can just sort of turned me around and helped me get back on a more, a more True Path. Right. You know, so we're winding this up. Is there anything else I should've asked you again? I mean I'll bring it back to, we're talking about how people get to transitions. I think what I've had to try to accept is that I'm just figuring things out a day at a time step at a time and that there are things that make so much sense to me and then something else happens and the challenges that, and I'm becoming more okay at accepting that things will be challenged and that things that I think that I might know might turn out to, to not be that at all. You know, that something may happen. The challenge is that, and for me, moving on with my life has just been accepting that pain and feeling that pain of losing someone gen my parents or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be on that level. I think. I think it's important to feel things. I think it's, if something hurts or is confusing to not just put in a box and put it away because it's gone arise to the surface. You know, we had, uh, I, um, one of the doctors, I think it was Jen's general, so general practitioner who said to her, you know, you're going to have thoughts. This was after Jen was diagnosed and she had said, you know, give him milk and cookies. Let them enjoy them. And once they cleaned their plates and them on their way, I think it's important whether it's through a massive loss, I being widowed or losing a parent or a loved one or whatever it is. I think it's important just to, to give these feelings they're do and not try and do a quick analysis. Answer it. Okay. Move on. I think it's important too, to think about these things and feel them and make sure you, you, you don't leave anything behind on the table because those things will come back and it hurts. It's painful. You know, I've spent many nights just in a days, um, but I had to get through it and I'm, I'm thankful now that I did that, that I chose that path of, of facing these fears and continuing to face them. You have to give yourself a break too. But I just think it's important to face these things and talk about these things. And if you, if someone is going through something like this, I think it's so important just to be there. You don't have to have the answers for people. We didn't expect people to have the answer for breast cancer. Right. But we did hope that they would come see us or be near us or send a text message saying, Hey, I love you or send a car to do something. You know, I've been fortunate to share a lot of my feelings in my life, whether through these photographs or other series that I've done. And um, I talked to a lot of different magazines and websites around the country and around the world about the photographs of Jen. And I did find that in the states, people weren't as willing to go as deep into things as in some other countries. You know, I remember I, Chinese magazine wanted to know, you know, with those last moments where with Jen and I just really enjoyed that they were interested in knowing that part of mortality. Enjoyed is a strange word I guess. But I was just happy that they said, hey, tell us about this. Don't wrap it up. Like, oh, she took her last breath. It was beautiful. It wasn't, it was, it was, it was crazy. You know, it was so strange. But you find someone

Speaker 1: 1:02:20

when you're gone this find someone who will listen, you know? Uh, don't hold it in, you know, because I know people who are holding these things in and I just see it eating them up and it's gonna rise to the surface, you know? So if I could say one thing that's been the most important to me, it's been those people who have just at times just let me be sad, you know, like yeah, watch out because sometimes people go too far down that. But there are times where people just wanted me to feel better and it was like Christ, I just, you know, it was just widowed a couple months ago. Can I be sad? And so, you know, I think we need to let these things be felt. And if you're a creative person trying to find a creative outlet, it doesn't have to be that you make of something for the rest of the world to see. It can be for yourself. But for me, you know, I have a series about, um, I inherited my dad's chair every pass and I've photographed a bunch of people in that chair and it was about these people, some of them are family, some friends, some just people I had met and thought were interesting and they came to the studio and we had a cup of coffee and we talked. And then I made there photographing with that. That's been my way of coming to a better piece about my parents passing. So I guess I'm kind of rambling at this point. I just think you gotta get the stuff out. You know, I think if you hold it in, it's going to become a wrecking ball. I mean, what I've used the phrase with my peers dealing with Alzheimer's, it's like some point you got to lean in. It's like you have to go into it. If you keep avoiding it, you don't live, you don't, I mean, you don't give it a chance to shape you, nor, yeah, it, it doesn't work I guess is all I found myself. It doesn't work. It's like you, you, you have to like dive into it and then see where that goes. Yeah. The second thing, which is a different response, um, that I'll do more as a mother. I so often want my kids to just hear what we're talking about and get the lesson and not have to live it. But in listening to you, it's like, I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, you might get a glimpse of stuff, but it's like each got to live. Yeah. Your experience and okay. You know, it's like I can't do that for them. I can't it. Yeah. So I mean that's just what was coming through my head as you're talking that everybody's got to go through their piece of life and take something from it. And that's when they'll know it. And again, there are guides and scouts and stuff. Well, yeah, I think that's incredibly important to even an extension

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

of what I was saying about feeling at yourself is letting other people feel it as well. You know, let everybody have their journey and their interpretation of something and being willing to hear what other people have to say. Because, you know, I think it's easy to think we know it all. And I think for me, um, being the youngest of 11, I've often deferred to people who are older than me just because I was growing up. There was always someone who was older than me, but you know, I remember, um, throughout this experience starting to recognize that, you know, I have my own voice and I have my experiences and, and the importance of going through that is what to me has made me confident in my beliefs and that, yeah, this is how I feel about something. And this is important because I feel like I've given it the time deserves. After Jen died, I remember trying to control things because when Jen was sick, we had to control a lot of things. You know, we had to watch her medications, we had to watch where we went, germs, this, that, the other, whatever it was. And I remember one time, um, I usually set up a little later than Jen and I left. Uh, I'd leave a bowl in the sink or something like that. And that would always bug her to wake up to that. And I remember saying, well, come on. Like, how is that a problem when you have cancer? What does that even matter? And I didn't understand why it was important for her to wake up to a clean kitchen and Ra's are social workers said, well, she's losing control of her body and that's something she can control. And it helped me to better understand why and to think, okay, like I should clean up at the end of the night and to help her with that. And after Jen passed, I started noticing those things about myself. I was trying to control situations and everything so that I just didn't, I knew how fragile I was and I knew that the slightest thing could easily set me off. And so I was trying to make sure that everything I did went according to plan and at a certain point it was just like I was, I wasn't living life, I wasn't experiencing things because you know, one time I was at my brother's house and I started to become so obsessive about things that I went in to use the bathroom, I wash my hands and I looked over and I was like, where's the toilet seat? Up or down? When I came in, I sat there having a near panic attack and grant it was, there was so many other things that probably were feeding into that panic but over the toilet seat being up or down because I didn't want to leave his house different from how it was when he, you know, so that was one of the breaking points of just thinking, okay, I can't control all these things. And that was a major point for me in my own healing and transitioning, uh, through this morning. And this pain was kind of letting go of that need to control everything and to know like, yeah, here's what I'm thinking about doing or this is why I like to happen, but might not come back to me that way. And if it does and I can either try to, um, fight something as much more powerful than me or I can accept it for what it is and go from there. And I think that's really important in this situation of, or this experience of healing and moving forward is being willing to bend, you know, and not trying to control everything,

Speaker 1: 1:09:11

right. Because not only is it the negative side that you're talking about, but it also means you're open. Then two things you never would have envisioned that to send you off. I wonderful adventure. Right, and that's okay too. Yeah. I'm going to wrap it up. All right. You think, okay. This wraps up today's visit with Angela Marron. Dino. He's a photographer and still a young husband whose journey through illness and death really emphasizes the exact opposite. How these really tough and sometimes horrible things can lead us to focusing on the opposite love and life. Thanks for this. You've been listening to passing through life. I show that explores how people get through major life changes. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a wonderful review in apple podcasts that will help new listeners know more what to expect, and you can email me at[inaudible] through life podcast@gmail.com feel free to comment about this show or suggest people in topics for future episodes. I'm Leanne Bull Becker. Thanks again for joining us.

Speaker 7: 1:10:46

[inaudible].